4 ms·

It's a terrible system I believe in pay for performance in all professions so I certainly would prefer such a system for a hospitality industry. The minimum I

by 300bps 13y ago

It's a terrible system I believe in pay for performance in all professions so I certainly would prefer such a system for a hospitality industry. The minimum I've ever given anyone for a tip is 15% and honestly the service has to be terrible for me to give that. If the service is good I give 20% and if the service is remarkable I'll give more. The way I think of it is that the cost of the meal is at least 15% to 20% higher than what is on the menu. If I don't want to pay that, I eat at home. I don't get wanting to pay 15% to 20% more on the menu and then having no ability to give an incentive for people to perform better.

kevincrane 13y ago
I think the incentives for doing good work as a server should be the same as they are for every other job: keeping your job. I'd rather the restaurant tell me what I'm going to pay upfront, rather than look at the menu and think "The burger's $7.99, plus 9% for sales tax, plus 15% for tip. If the server is god awful and spits in my food, maybe only 10% for tip".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - markyc 13y ago
    "So your hyperbole is far from reality" I'd love for that to be true :)
  - kevincrane 13y ago
    > Is money that tight? Maybe you should just be eating at home. My point is that I'd rather the menu just said $10 for a burger. I would give them $10, they would give me a burger, and we'd both be happy. > Food tampering is illegal in the entire United States. In some states, food tampering is a Class I Felony. So your hyperbole is far from reality. Yes, that was a hyperbole, you got me. The point for that one was that even when servers give awful service, you're still expected to tip them because that's how they get their money. That basically defeats the whole rhetoric of "tipping incentivizes good performance".
TylerE 13y ago
I don't think you're incentivizing what you think are. Why should a server work twice as hard for 33% more tip?
salgernon 13y ago
You can provide the incentive by frequenting the business. You can provide feedback on poor performance directly to the management. I'm salaried, and no end-user ever can ever give me direct feedback, but they can provide feedback buy buying (or not buying) my companies products. Management then interprets this signal (given many other variables) and takes such actions as makes sense, such as providing incentive rewards or retraining or firing. There's no reason why this model can't work in a restaurant.
lisper 13y ago
Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for. The problem with tipping is that, unless you return to the same place often, there's no disincentive for customers who defect and stiff the waiter. The waiter can't reclaim the service he's already provided. So actually providing pay for performance has to be done mostly out of altruism rather than as part of a fair exchange. The result is that some people do defect, and those who don't literally end up picking up the tab for them.
- 300bps 13y ago
  Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for...The problem with tipping is that...there's no disincentive for customers who defect and stiff the waiter So, it's a fine goal. Does that mean we scrap the goal because of one problem? People cheat welfare, social security, medicare, take-a-penny/leave-a-penny bins, lost and found departments, disability insurance and every other part of life. Some people will cheat the tip system. Inevitable. Unless you advocate getting rid of welfare, social security, medicare and - frankly - everything... Why are you holding tipping up to such scrutiny? I agree with your first statement. Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for and we shouldn't throw the baby away with the bathwater because of a minority of cheaters.
  - lisper 13y ago
    > Does that mean we scrap the goal because of one problem? Of course not. But it doesn't mean being complacent and living with a bad solution. There are so many better ways to provide pay for performance. For example: one could change the protocol so that instead of a baseline of zero service charge, the baseline is, say, 15%. This is part of the bill. But then you are free to add more for exceptionally good service or subtract for exceptionally bad service. Fewer people will stiff waiters if they have to be proactive in order to do so. BTW (and this is a rhetorical question): why should pay-for-performance be limited to waiters? Why not extend it to the cooks as well? Why not let people just pay what they thought the meal was worth? Why not extend it to other professions? Pay your doctor, your lawyer, any service provider, what you thought the service was worth after it has been provided?
  - 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
po 13y ago
I tip well too but the server doesnt know that. Maybe in non-competitive markets it works, but in a place like NYC where I lived before moving to Tokyo, a table/seat and the servers attention might be in high demand and servers would make judgement calls. Even if you could declare your tip up front, you're not incentivizing them to perform better, you're competing with other patrons. You're paying them to neglect others. It's not that I don't want the ability to incentivize… It's that I want only the owner/manager to have the ability to incentivize, not other patrons.
- gohrt 13y ago
  Perhaps you could choose to not attend a restaurant that provides poor waitservice? Or pay a premium for access to a limited resource?
  - shabble 13y ago
    How do you determine the waitservice quality upfront? You can't trust reviews, since the super positive ones might have all been written by people who 'looked like high-tippers' and got the special service, and likewise the 'apparently poor-tipping party' service reviews might make an otherwise good restaurant look bad. So you're pretty much stuck with going repeatedly or relying on anecdotal suggestions by friends or locals. And maybe you still can't trust those, for the same reasons.
ryanbrunner 13y ago
If your reasons for supporting tipping as a practice are "pay for performance", it doesn't make logical sense to give a 15% tip regardless of how bad the service was. I hear this argument a lot, and honestly in most cases the differential on performance comes out to a few dollars on a $15+ tip. If you honestly tip to reward good performance, why are you rewarding horrible performance at nearly the rate that you reward excellent performance?
- arkades 13y ago
  You're assuming everyone does. I "pay for performance" and my tips will generally bottom out at 10% (I feel a cad not tipping at all, though I shouldn't) and max out at 50% (very, very uncommon and usually requires my creating extra work for the server, such as breaking a glass/ spilling a drink on the floor).
  - ryanbrunner 13y ago
    But even then, you're clearly not 100% motivated to "pay for performance". To some degree you are, clearly - but a large part of why you tip is cultural expectations, or you wouldn't be tipping 10% for horrendous service. Which is fine, I'd never not tip in Canada or the US either, but let's be honest with ourselves - everyone tips because you're culturally expected to tip.
nmcfarl 13y ago
There is also a problem with messaging even after the bill has been paid due to unclear standards of tipping. I have a friend here in Seattle, who likes to consider himself a generous tipper. As such a 20% tip is for truly horrible service. 25-30 is standard and 50% is common enough for good service. I do think this good for the servers - but they have no clue that they sucked (I imagine) when they get a 20% tip. Unless I stiff them on my ½ of the bill :) And while he may be extreme, diversity in the minimum/maximum range for tips means the messaging about performance is muddled.
kybernetikos 13y ago
Pay for performance is probably misguided in at least some professions (extrinsic reward can drive out more effective intrinsic reward), however even if you believe in pay for performance, the appropriate person to pay for better performance is the employer, not the customer.

by 300bps 13y ago

kevincrane 13y ago

I think the incentives for doing good work as a server should be the same as they are for every other job: keeping your job. I'd rather the restaurant tell me what I'm going to pay upfront, rather than look at the menu and think "The burger's $7.99, plus 9% for sales tax, plus 15% for tip. If the server is god awful and spits in my food, maybe only 10% for tip".

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- markyc 13y ago
  "So your hyperbole is far from reality" I'd love for that to be true :)
- kevincrane 13y ago
  > Is money that tight? Maybe you should just be eating at home. My point is that I'd rather the menu just said $10 for a burger. I would give them $10, they would give me a burger, and we'd both be happy. > Food tampering is illegal in the entire United States. In some states, food tampering is a Class I Felony. So your hyperbole is far from reality. Yes, that was a hyperbole, you got me. The point for that one was that even when servers give awful service, you're still expected to tip them because that's how they get their money. That basically defeats the whole rhetoric of "tipping incentivizes good performance".

TylerE 13y ago

I don't think you're incentivizing what you think are. Why should a server work twice as hard for 33% more tip?

salgernon 13y ago

You can provide the incentive by frequenting the business. You can provide feedback on poor performance directly to the management. I'm salaried, and no end-user ever can ever give me direct feedback, but they can provide feedback buy buying (or not buying) my companies products. Management then interprets this signal (given many other variables) and takes such actions as makes sense, such as providing incentive rewards or retraining or firing. There's no reason why this model can't work in a restaurant.

lisper 13y ago

Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for. The problem with tipping is that, unless you return to the same place often, there's no disincentive for customers who defect and stiff the waiter. The waiter can't reclaim the service he's already provided. So actually providing pay for performance has to be done mostly out of altruism rather than as part of a fair exchange. The result is that some people do defect, and those who don't literally end up picking up the tab for them.

300bps 13y ago
Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for...The problem with tipping is that...there's no disincentive for customers who defect and stiff the waiter So, it's a fine goal. Does that mean we scrap the goal because of one problem? People cheat welfare, social security, medicare, take-a-penny/leave-a-penny bins, lost and found departments, disability insurance and every other part of life. Some people will cheat the tip system. Inevitable. Unless you advocate getting rid of welfare, social security, medicare and - frankly - everything... Why are you holding tipping up to such scrutiny? I agree with your first statement. Pay for performance is a fine goal to strive for and we shouldn't throw the baby away with the bathwater because of a minority of cheaters.
- lisper 13y ago
  > Does that mean we scrap the goal because of one problem? Of course not. But it doesn't mean being complacent and living with a bad solution. There are so many better ways to provide pay for performance. For example: one could change the protocol so that instead of a baseline of zero service charge, the baseline is, say, 15%. This is part of the bill. But then you are free to add more for exceptionally good service or subtract for exceptionally bad service. Fewer people will stiff waiters if they have to be proactive in order to do so. BTW (and this is a rhetorical question): why should pay-for-performance be limited to waiters? Why not extend it to the cooks as well? Why not let people just pay what they thought the meal was worth? Why not extend it to other professions? Pay your doctor, your lawyer, any service provider, what you thought the service was worth after it has been provided?
- 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

po 13y ago

I tip well too but the server doesnt know that. Maybe in non-competitive markets it works, but in a place like NYC where I lived before moving to Tokyo, a table/seat and the servers attention might be in high demand and servers would make judgement calls. Even if you could declare your tip up front, you're not incentivizing them to perform better, you're competing with other patrons. You're paying them to neglect others. It's not that I don't want the ability to incentivize… It's that I want only the owner/manager to have the ability to incentivize, not other patrons.

gohrt 13y ago
Perhaps you could choose to not attend a restaurant that provides poor waitservice? Or pay a premium for access to a limited resource?
- shabble 13y ago
  How do you determine the waitservice quality upfront? You can't trust reviews, since the super positive ones might have all been written by people who 'looked like high-tippers' and got the special service, and likewise the 'apparently poor-tipping party' service reviews might make an otherwise good restaurant look bad. So you're pretty much stuck with going repeatedly or relying on anecdotal suggestions by friends or locals. And maybe you still can't trust those, for the same reasons.

ryanbrunner 13y ago

If your reasons for supporting tipping as a practice are "pay for performance", it doesn't make logical sense to give a 15% tip regardless of how bad the service was. I hear this argument a lot, and honestly in most cases the differential on performance comes out to a few dollars on a $15+ tip. If you honestly tip to reward good performance, why are you rewarding horrible performance at nearly the rate that you reward excellent performance?

arkades 13y ago
You're assuming everyone does. I "pay for performance" and my tips will generally bottom out at 10% (I feel a cad not tipping at all, though I shouldn't) and max out at 50% (very, very uncommon and usually requires my creating extra work for the server, such as breaking a glass/ spilling a drink on the floor).
- ryanbrunner 13y ago
  But even then, you're clearly not 100% motivated to "pay for performance". To some degree you are, clearly - but a large part of why you tip is cultural expectations, or you wouldn't be tipping 10% for horrendous service. Which is fine, I'd never not tip in Canada or the US either, but let's be honest with ourselves - everyone tips because you're culturally expected to tip.

nmcfarl 13y ago

There is also a problem with messaging even after the bill has been paid due to unclear standards of tipping. I have a friend here in Seattle, who likes to consider himself a generous tipper. As such a 20% tip is for truly horrible service. 25-30 is standard and 50% is common enough for good service. I do think this good for the servers - but they have no clue that they sucked (I imagine) when they get a 20% tip. Unless I stiff them on my ½ of the bill :) And while he may be extreme, diversity in the minimum/maximum range for tips means the messaging about performance is muddled.

kybernetikos 13y ago

Pay for performance is probably misguided in at least some professions (extrinsic reward can drive out more effective intrinsic reward), however even if you believe in pay for performance, the appropriate person to pay for better performance is the employer, not the customer.