4 ms·

Go to a party. Listen to the laughter, that brittle-tongued voice that says fun on the surface and fear underneath. Feel the tension, feel the pressure. Nobody

by mkn 17y ago

Go to a party. Listen to the laughter, that brittle-tongued voice that says fun on the surface and fear underneath. Feel the tension, feel the pressure. Nobody really relaxes. They are faking it....These are not people who are at peace with themselves. Watch the news on TV. Listen to the lyrics in popular songs. You find the same theme repeated over and over in variations. Jealousy, suffering, discontent and stress. And here we have the crux of it. This is Nietasche's ressentiment, the origin of moral feeling. Observe the hatred he has for the successful and the contented. They have won at the game of life, in that they fit in, are laughing, are enjoying themselves, yet the author feels that there must be something wrong with them. They must deserve his scorn because he has not achieved the ease and confidence that they show. It must be a chimera. Meditation sets the author apart. He has stamina. He has determination. He has 'grit', and for this he is despised by the masses. Bullshit. And isn't it suspicious that meditation always leads to a higher place? Isn't it at least possible that meditation might merely unveil yourself to you? Or maybe, more laughably, help you to obscure yourself from you? Or, even more laughably, to obscure the nature of reality from yourself so that you can continue to believe that you have the high ground in some realm of ideas, despite your losses and discontentment in the observable universe? It strikes me as suspicious that someone with this obvious contempt for the masses could take hold of a meditative practice and use it objectively, to discover the true nature of anything, let alone any inner 'true' happiness. We have only the observed facts that the author has provided, minus his 'insights' into the 'true nature' of these observances or the 'ulterior motives' of the actors he observes. Zarathustra's advice would be well taken by him, and all who find this article compelling: "Always love your neighbor as yourselves -- but first be such as love themselves"

debt 17y ago
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Have you been to a party recently? I mean, a serious beer-pong-playing, beer-bonging, naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party? They're terrible. Everyone is clearly pretending to have a good time. Everything smells like beer or puke. Also, have you watched the news lately? I don't think that needs elaborating. Popular music is exactly as the author describes. No one could possibly be content listening to...wait, they're piping that shit in through the loudspeaker at the baseball game now? Fuck. The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to come right out and say it. Starting a company is not socially acceptable. It seems 99% of startups fail. I could easily fit in and survive by getting a job at some major software company, get benefits, paid vacations, etc. Actually, I did and it leaves me with the feeling that the author describes. I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather then getting what they actually wanted. Many people, yourself included, mask their personalities with a phony sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave my friend alone. He may be happy here at this baseball game, getting drunk and probably later falling asleep in your garden." Also, the author implies that contentment can not be had from the material universe. Again, this may be reason enough to detest the phony atmosphere that permeates the environment of every antisocial activity. In a way, we have to deal with the drones' innane bullshit, because they can't work out properly what they want. Racism, sexism, nationalism, extremism, isms galore. They'll grab any new idea that works rather than what works the best. I'm a drone, just a lesser one. Proudly so. I'm not going to get worked up and punch a guy in the face because he dissed the Sox. This shit happens at every game. Every single one. If meditation slows these people down and forces them to ask things like, "Why am I like this?" or "Is there another way?", then I'm willing to take my chances.
- mkn 17y ago
  The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to come right out and say it. To what part of my comment could you possibly be referring? Let me state that this is a direct invitation for you to find in my previous comment the line or lines that supports your statement about my purported beliefs about 'those people at the party' and that I 'agree but don't want to...say it.' Put up or shut up. Many people, yourself included, mask their personalities with a phony sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave my friend alone. He may be happy here at this baseball game, getting drunk and probably later falling asleep in your garden." You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. First, "Have you been to a...naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party?", implying that I haven't, or at least haven't perceived the true nature of it, and then, "Hey, mang, " & etc., seemingly implying that this is my lifestyle and that I'm defending it. It's telling that your hypothetical example individual not only is not 'happy...at [the] baseball game,' but that, as proof he is not, he later '[falls] asleep in your garden.' Again, point to the part of my comment that supports your allegation of a 'phony optimism' or retract your insipid allegation. It's also telling that the author's non-specific use of the word 'party' induces, in you, the concept of the most objectionable kind of party you can think of, one in which the participants are engaging in some kind of blatant mass stupidity, by your judgment. Why would one compare oneself to this particular set? Why choose who one believes are the worst of the worst to which to compare oneself, unless one wants to aggrandize oneself? That is the root of the suspicion. Why not say, "Go to the boardroom of Google. Feel the tension. Everybody is faking it."? Indeed, some do, but only those who wish to waylay the corporate as inherently evil. And they do so by making the corporate out to be the opposite of themselves, who are by definition, 'good'. Starting a company is not socially acceptable. I want whatever you're smoking. I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather then getting what they actually wanted. Look at the pejoratives: 'drones', 'given in', 'given up', 'parties' as frat-boy free-for-alls, 'baseball games' as a collection of drones, and 'rather then [sic] getting what they actually wanted'. I submit, based on this portion of your comment, that you are so accustomed to committing Nitezsche's ressentiment that you cannot even see when you are doing it, nor the sheer number of spurious value-judgments that you must make in order to support it. It may help you to understand that ressentiment is not just dislike for a class that has bested you, but the transmutation of that dislike into a moral statement, the statement that "They are wrong for winning, and all of the qualities that make them the winners are evil, and all of the qualities that make me the loser are virtues." Actually, [having a software job with benefits and vacations] leaves me with the feeling that the author describes. I leave it to you whether this feeling is a function of your psychology or a function of the lifestyle in which you were engaged. Was it subjective, rooted in you, or objective, rooted in the circumstance?
tdavis 17y ago
Merely by presenting his arguments in the way he has, he shows that he doesn't actually get the point of meditation (or at least the Eastern philosophies which generally practice it). If he did, he'd realize that all those people were miserable because they're choosing to be miserable. When they decide to stop being miserable and alter their perception of this subjective, all-encompassing, constant thing of our own creation you refer to as "reality", they won't be miserable anymore. They'll be enlightened. I mean, he even goes on to question the time he's spent meditating. Questioning anything in this way, i.e. deciding if something belongs in the "Good Bucket" or "Bad Bucket" again simply shows that he doesn't get it. For the love of God (or whomever), if you have any interest in meditation, of seeking enlightenment, of altering your perceptions, just ignore this entire article. There is a "higher place". There is such a thing as unveiling yourself to you. You can come to understand that there is nothing objective. And you can do it whenever you are ready to. If you feel you must meditate or seek a Zen Master or whatever, then you should do it. But only because you feel you must. Personally, I'm not through with the game just yet.
- derefr 17y ago
  You're looking at everything through Zen-colored glasses. > Questioning anything in this way, i.e. deciding if something belongs in the "Good Bucket" or "Bad Bucket" again simply shows that he doesn't get it. What this shows, to me, is that he is an empiricist trying to decide if meditation is an effective path toward what he seeks to achieve. It might be that once you are "of the Eastern philosophy", you no longer accept empirical evaluations; however, you have to bootstrap yourself into that sort of thing. You can't evolve straight from a fish into a bird, you have to have a middle stage where your fins (empirical thought) assist your wings (seeking enlightenment) before your wings are strong enough that you can shuck the fins off.
  - tdavis 17y ago
    Well, I wouldn't say I'm quite "there" yet either, but I understand it enough to realize that you can't find something you already have (e.g., a "path"). Empirical thought still assists me too, but the point is he's looking at meditation and everything else objectively: "People are miserable, they should meditate, it will help" when the real message should be "Try meditation. It'll work if you feel like it should and put forth enough of an effort to satisfy your own requirements." Now that might make a newcomer wonder, "what on earth does he mean by that?" Then they can actually learn. Instead, they think "Okay, I will sit in silence listening to myself breath 2 hours a day and somehow that will help me be happier!" They're still waiting for "stuff" to "happen" to them. There is no "stuff"! Nothing "happens" to you! They're already on the wrong track.
derefr 17y ago
I don't know, that paragraph struck me as true in a way that has nothing to do with meditation. When I go out with friends, I have "fun." I enjoy it at the time, but not in retrospect. I come home tired. When I go out with the person I love, on the other hand, I truly enjoy myself—even if we ended up doing absolutely nothing but, say, waiting in line all night, I come home invigorated, and remember the night fondly. This isn't a matter of remembering them fondly. The feeling I recall is that I was able to be myself the entire night; I had none of the "jealousy, suffering, discontent and stress" that comes from a social situation where you aren't truly aware of the motivations of the people around you, and thus have to put on a "face" of only the highest of social intentions and mannerisms (perpetuating the cycle, because then they don't know what your motivation is.) This may be a relic of introversion, of course, but I think everyone can feel it to some degree. Also, the author is speaking of a different type of party than that which you're thinking of, I believe; he's referring to open-to-anyone parties with bouncers and alcohol—amateur versions of nightclubs. In such a party, everyone is indeed on edge. In a private gathering of only your true, closest friends, you will indeed be able to "let your hair down" and the negative emotions will evaporate... but most parties are not that party. Songwriters; pop, rock, rap, and hip-hop songwriters in particular, go to the more common type of party exclusively; it's part of their their livelihood to attend these "events." Thus, this is what they sing about. I hesitate to reference a song less than ten years old, but this is a somewhat relevant description of the sentiment the author is trying to capture: Glass Danse by The Faint -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSwzvatqE6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSwzvatqE6I Now, I don't know what all that had to do with meditation, but for the fact that your own mind is another place where you can "let your hair down" and be yourself, and that many people are so socially immersed at all times that they forget that their thoughts are not bound or inspected by the same social contract. I thus imagine that meditation can invigorate you in some of the same ways.
silentbicycle 17y ago
> And isn't it suspicious that meditation always leads to a higher place? Er, what? Meditation is a chance for you to stop reacting to everything around you, stop reacting to the animal impulses that keep floating up in your mind, and just see the world and your mind for what they are. If somebody cuts you off in traffic or makes fun of some idea that you hold a little too close for your own good, you probably feel anger or irritation building up, but that's just some animal part of your brain making noise. (It doesn't know that not everything is a matter of life and death.) You can let it go, and you don't need to get mad and snap at people because you had a crappy day at work. (That doesn't do anybody any good.) Likewise, don't get so caught up in thinking about a bug that came up this morning, or whatever, that you forget to taste your lunch. You can spend so much time worrying about an idea, something that doesn't even exist, that you forget to appreciate the things that do. If your idea of a "higher place" is a world in which people stop doing as much stupid shit because they're no longer reacting like threatened animals half the time, then, ok, cool. (I think that capital-e Enlightenment is another idealized thing to drive yourself crazy trying to chase. Not all Buddhists believe in enlightenment, though there are probably as many Buddhisms as there are Buddhists.) Also, a lot of the religious stuff came into Buddhism because, well, try showing that stuff to someone thousands of years ago in India, then having them explain it to someone else, ... who shows someone else in China how to see their mind working that way, who ... and see if it gets a bunch of their cultural symbolism mixed in along the way. Nowadays, we talk about the mind like it's a computer. Is it a computer? Or do we just talk about it that way because that model seems useful to us? Will that seem weird to people in the future?
coffeemug 17y ago
"They have won at the game of life, in that they fit in, are laughing, are enjoying themselves, yet the author feels that there must be something wrong with them." You misunderstand. After you meditate for a while, especially with a knowledgeable support group (the sangha), you become extremely attuned to human emotions (since you watch them very closely all day long). If you then go to a party, a family gathering, or if you turn on the TV, tiny changes in people's voice, expressions, and breathing will give away what they're feeling - fear, unease, and nerviousness. Imagine two people that have truly achieved something meet for the first time. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, Einstein and Feynman. Try to imagine in your mind what the meeting would be like. Would they laugh nerviously and use smalltalk? Would they use drinks to break the ice? Would they be, even momentarily, afraid to approach each other? If they are truly accomplished people at peace with themselves, none of this would take place. Now compare this to a typical party or gathering. Do accomplished people who have no need to defend their worth act this way? The author isn't asserting that he's "better" than the masses. He has simply observed his suffering, and now he observes it in other people. Most "accomplished" Westerners are unhappy, and use incredible amounts of substances to mask that unhappiness (cigarettes, alcohol, prozac, whatever). And if it's not substances, it's behavior (compulsive shopping, addiction to following sports, internet, any kind of waiting for something to happen in your life, and watching nothing happen day in and day out). It's not contempt. It's compassion for other people's pain.
- tptacek 17y ago
  Contempt masquerading as "compassion" is still contempt. This argument is any more significant than loving the sinner and hating the sin.

by mkn 17y ago

debt 17y ago

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Have you been to a party recently? I mean, a serious beer-pong-playing, beer-bonging, naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party? They're terrible. Everyone is clearly pretending to have a good time. Everything smells like beer or puke. Also, have you watched the news lately? I don't think that needs elaborating. Popular music is exactly as the author describes. No one could possibly be content listening to...wait, they're piping that shit in through the loudspeaker at the baseball game now? Fuck. The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to come right out and say it. Starting a company is not socially acceptable. It seems 99% of startups fail. I could easily fit in and survive by getting a job at some major software company, get benefits, paid vacations, etc. Actually, I did and it leaves me with the feeling that the author describes. I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather then getting what they actually wanted. Many people, yourself included, mask their personalities with a phony sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave my friend alone. He may be happy here at this baseball game, getting drunk and probably later falling asleep in your garden." Also, the author implies that contentment can not be had from the material universe. Again, this may be reason enough to detest the phony atmosphere that permeates the environment of every antisocial activity. In a way, we have to deal with the drones' innane bullshit, because they can't work out properly what they want. Racism, sexism, nationalism, extremism, isms galore. They'll grab any new idea that works rather than what works the best. I'm a drone, just a lesser one. Proudly so. I'm not going to get worked up and punch a guy in the face because he dissed the Sox. This shit happens at every game. Every single one. If meditation slows these people down and forces them to ask things like, "Why am I like this?" or "Is there another way?", then I'm willing to take my chances.

mkn 17y ago
The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to come right out and say it. To what part of my comment could you possibly be referring? Let me state that this is a direct invitation for you to find in my previous comment the line or lines that supports your statement about my purported beliefs about 'those people at the party' and that I 'agree but don't want to...say it.' Put up or shut up. Many people, yourself included, mask their personalities with a phony sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave my friend alone. He may be happy here at this baseball game, getting drunk and probably later falling asleep in your garden." You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. First, "Have you been to a...naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party?", implying that I haven't, or at least haven't perceived the true nature of it, and then, "Hey, mang, " & etc., seemingly implying that this is my lifestyle and that I'm defending it. It's telling that your hypothetical example individual not only is not 'happy...at [the] baseball game,' but that, as proof he is not, he later '[falls] asleep in your garden.' Again, point to the part of my comment that supports your allegation of a 'phony optimism' or retract your insipid allegation. It's also telling that the author's non-specific use of the word 'party' induces, in you, the concept of the most objectionable kind of party you can think of, one in which the participants are engaging in some kind of blatant mass stupidity, by your judgment. Why would one compare oneself to this particular set? Why choose who one believes are the worst of the worst to which to compare oneself, unless one wants to aggrandize oneself? That is the root of the suspicion. Why not say, "Go to the boardroom of Google. Feel the tension. Everybody is faking it."? Indeed, some do, but only those who wish to waylay the corporate as inherently evil. And they do so by making the corporate out to be the opposite of themselves, who are by definition, 'good'. Starting a company is not socially acceptable. I want whatever you're smoking. I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather then getting what they actually wanted. Look at the pejoratives: 'drones', 'given in', 'given up', 'parties' as frat-boy free-for-alls, 'baseball games' as a collection of drones, and 'rather then [sic] getting what they actually wanted'. I submit, based on this portion of your comment, that you are so accustomed to committing Nitezsche's ressentiment that you cannot even see when you are doing it, nor the sheer number of spurious value-judgments that you must make in order to support it. It may help you to understand that ressentiment is not just dislike for a class that has bested you, but the transmutation of that dislike into a moral statement, the statement that "They are wrong for winning, and all of the qualities that make them the winners are evil, and all of the qualities that make me the loser are virtues." Actually, [having a software job with benefits and vacations] leaves me with the feeling that the author describes. I leave it to you whether this feeling is a function of your psychology or a function of the lifestyle in which you were engaged. Was it subjective, rooted in you, or objective, rooted in the circumstance?

tdavis 17y ago

Merely by presenting his arguments in the way he has, he shows that he doesn't actually get the point of meditation (or at least the Eastern philosophies which generally practice it). If he did, he'd realize that all those people were miserable because they're choosing to be miserable. When they decide to stop being miserable and alter their perception of this subjective, all-encompassing, constant thing of our own creation you refer to as "reality", they won't be miserable anymore. They'll be enlightened. I mean, he even goes on to question the time he's spent meditating. Questioning anything in this way, i.e. deciding if something belongs in the "Good Bucket" or "Bad Bucket" again simply shows that he doesn't get it. For the love of God (or whomever), if you have any interest in meditation, of seeking enlightenment, of altering your perceptions, just ignore this entire article. There is a "higher place". There is such a thing as unveiling yourself to you. You can come to understand that there is nothing objective. And you can do it whenever you are ready to. If you feel you must meditate or seek a Zen Master or whatever, then you should do it. But only because you feel you must. Personally, I'm not through with the game just yet.

derefr 17y ago
You're looking at everything through Zen-colored glasses. > Questioning anything in this way, i.e. deciding if something belongs in the "Good Bucket" or "Bad Bucket" again simply shows that he doesn't get it. What this shows, to me, is that he is an empiricist trying to decide if meditation is an effective path toward what he seeks to achieve. It might be that once you are "of the Eastern philosophy", you no longer accept empirical evaluations; however, you have to bootstrap yourself into that sort of thing. You can't evolve straight from a fish into a bird, you have to have a middle stage where your fins (empirical thought) assist your wings (seeking enlightenment) before your wings are strong enough that you can shuck the fins off.
- tdavis 17y ago
  Well, I wouldn't say I'm quite "there" yet either, but I understand it enough to realize that you can't find something you already have (e.g., a "path"). Empirical thought still assists me too, but the point is he's looking at meditation and everything else objectively: "People are miserable, they should meditate, it will help" when the real message should be "Try meditation. It'll work if you feel like it should and put forth enough of an effort to satisfy your own requirements." Now that might make a newcomer wonder, "what on earth does he mean by that?" Then they can actually learn. Instead, they think "Okay, I will sit in silence listening to myself breath 2 hours a day and somehow that will help me be happier!" They're still waiting for "stuff" to "happen" to them. There is no "stuff"! Nothing "happens" to you! They're already on the wrong track.

derefr 17y ago

I don't know, that paragraph struck me as true in a way that has nothing to do with meditation. When I go out with friends, I have "fun." I enjoy it at the time, but not in retrospect. I come home tired. When I go out with the person I love, on the other hand, I truly enjoy myself—even if we ended up doing absolutely nothing but, say, waiting in line all night, I come home invigorated, and remember the night fondly. This isn't a matter of remembering them fondly. The feeling I recall is that I was able to be myself the entire night; I had none of the "jealousy, suffering, discontent and stress" that comes from a social situation where you aren't truly aware of the motivations of the people around you, and thus have to put on a "face" of only the highest of social intentions and mannerisms (perpetuating the cycle, because then they don't know what your motivation is.) This may be a relic of introversion, of course, but I think everyone can feel it to some degree. Also, the author is speaking of a different type of party than that which you're thinking of, I believe; he's referring to open-to-anyone parties with bouncers and alcohol—amateur versions of nightclubs. In such a party, everyone is indeed on edge. In a private gathering of only your true, closest friends, you will indeed be able to "let your hair down" and the negative emotions will evaporate... but most parties are not that party. Songwriters; pop, rock, rap, and hip-hop songwriters in particular, go to the more common type of party exclusively; it's part of their their livelihood to attend these "events." Thus, this is what they sing about. I hesitate to reference a song less than ten years old, but this is a somewhat relevant description of the sentiment the author is trying to capture: Glass Danse by The Faint -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSwzvatqE6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSwzvatqE6I Now, I don't know what all that had to do with meditation, but for the fact that your own mind is another place where you can "let your hair down" and be yourself, and that many people are so socially immersed at all times that they forget that their thoughts are not bound or inspected by the same social contract. I thus imagine that meditation can invigorate you in some of the same ways.

silentbicycle 17y ago

> And isn't it suspicious that meditation always leads to a higher place? Er, what? Meditation is a chance for you to stop reacting to everything around you, stop reacting to the animal impulses that keep floating up in your mind, and just see the world and your mind for what they are. If somebody cuts you off in traffic or makes fun of some idea that you hold a little too close for your own good, you probably feel anger or irritation building up, but that's just some animal part of your brain making noise. (It doesn't know that not everything is a matter of life and death.) You can let it go, and you don't need to get mad and snap at people because you had a crappy day at work. (That doesn't do anybody any good.) Likewise, don't get so caught up in thinking about a bug that came up this morning, or whatever, that you forget to taste your lunch. You can spend so much time worrying about an idea, something that doesn't even exist, that you forget to appreciate the things that do. If your idea of a "higher place" is a world in which people stop doing as much stupid shit because they're no longer reacting like threatened animals half the time, then, ok, cool. (I think that capital-e Enlightenment is another idealized thing to drive yourself crazy trying to chase. Not all Buddhists believe in enlightenment, though there are probably as many Buddhisms as there are Buddhists.) Also, a lot of the religious stuff came into Buddhism because, well, try showing that stuff to someone thousands of years ago in India, then having them explain it to someone else, ... who shows someone else in China how to see their mind working that way, who ... and see if it gets a bunch of their cultural symbolism mixed in along the way. Nowadays, we talk about the mind like it's a computer. Is it a computer? Or do we just talk about it that way because that model seems useful to us? Will that seem weird to people in the future?

coffeemug 17y ago

"They have won at the game of life, in that they fit in, are laughing, are enjoying themselves, yet the author feels that there must be something wrong with them." You misunderstand. After you meditate for a while, especially with a knowledgeable support group (the sangha), you become extremely attuned to human emotions (since you watch them very closely all day long). If you then go to a party, a family gathering, or if you turn on the TV, tiny changes in people's voice, expressions, and breathing will give away what they're feeling - fear, unease, and nerviousness. Imagine two people that have truly achieved something meet for the first time. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, Einstein and Feynman. Try to imagine in your mind what the meeting would be like. Would they laugh nerviously and use smalltalk? Would they use drinks to break the ice? Would they be, even momentarily, afraid to approach each other? If they are truly accomplished people at peace with themselves, none of this would take place. Now compare this to a typical party or gathering. Do accomplished people who have no need to defend their worth act this way? The author isn't asserting that he's "better" than the masses. He has simply observed his suffering, and now he observes it in other people. Most "accomplished" Westerners are unhappy, and use incredible amounts of substances to mask that unhappiness (cigarettes, alcohol, prozac, whatever). And if it's not substances, it's behavior (compulsive shopping, addiction to following sports, internet, any kind of waiting for something to happen in your life, and watching nothing happen day in and day out). It's not contempt. It's compassion for other people's pain.

tptacek 17y ago
Contempt masquerading as "compassion" is still contempt. This argument is any more significant than loving the sinner and hating the sin.