5 ms·

Americanesque? 80 hours? 3 hour commute? America is bigger than SV, my friend. Here in the midwest, you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a tech person that wo

by pionar 13y ago

Americanesque? 80 hours? 3 hour commute? America is bigger than SV, my friend. Here in the midwest, you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a tech person that works more than 45-50 hours on a rough week. The longest I've ever commuted was about an hour, and that was because I lived 50 miles from where I worked (that is very unusual as well). As it stands right now, I live on the far end of one side of town (Indianapolis), and work is on the far end of the other side, and it takes me about 35 minutes. I don't get paid for my time, I get paid for the value I bring to my company.

wikiburner 13y ago
Completely agree. I'm currently getting downvoted to hell on this thread for a little joke I made to mirror the strawman nature of his arguments: "Americanesque slavery system"??? "80 hour weeks"??? "3 hour commutes"??? What's galling (pardon the pun) is the arrogance that's often on display towards any company or country that has the temerity to question the wisdom of these rules: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323549204578316101127838118.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732354920457831... PG himself has posted this little graphic that illustrates quite nicely where the European economy is heading, no doubt in part because of these attitudes: http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/print-edition/20120728_FBC674.png http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/29...
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  Sorry - that was an exaggeration (or was it considering a lot of poorer people and debtors do two jobs and proportionally there are more of these people?) Yours is a pretty corporate-centric view of things and doesn't include mergers, manufacturing moving to the East, outsourcing and the rampant globalisation since the 1950's when communications and travel became considerably less tiresome... Most businesses by employee volume are SME's. Large businesses don't just suddenly appear. They grow over time.
  - wikiburner 13y ago
    >(or was it considering a lot of poorer people and debtors do two jobs and proportionally there are more of these people?) Being an American, the only people I've known who have had to work more than one job was because their first employer wouldn't give them enough hours because of the type of regulations and "work rules" you are championing. >Yours is a pretty corporate-centric view of things and doesn't include mergers, manufacturing moving to the East, outsourcing and the rampant globalisation since the 1950's when communications and travel became considerably less tiresome... I would view it as reality-centric. It's supply and demand. It turns out Western peoples aren't the only ones who can perform sophisticated labor in exchange for payment. People in the East have every right to participate in the global economy. Your original comment stated: "we're there to get paid for our time". You're wrong - it's not kindergarten. You're paid in exchange for the value you bring to your employer. >Most businesses by employee volume are SME's. Large businesses don't just suddenly appear. They grow over time. That's the point of the chart. They aren't suddenly appearing (successful startups) or growing over time. From what I've heard, many of the legacy Euro-corps (Airbus for example) have a pretty incestuous relationship with the government. All told, it doesn't sound like a very healthy business ecosystem.
- tinkerina 13y ago
  That little graphic only shows that Europeans are now less likely to create huge companies, and has nothing to do with the stability of the local economy there. For example, Germany has a strong economy built around an agglomeration of small and medium-sized businesses. More about the "Mittelstand": http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/working/introducing-the-german-mittelstand/ http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/working/introducing-the...
- mike-cardwell 13y ago
  I'd be more interested in seeing the equivalent graph but for small companies, rather than big companies.
johnward 13y ago
You say 45-50 hours like it's nothing though. That's still a lot of time. I guess I'm technically midwest (rust belt). I do spend 3 hours on the road a day when I have to commute. I did it for 8 years and can't handle it anymore, so I negotiate to work remotely. There are shitty tech jobs out there and I've worked a few of them. 24 hour on call, 12 hour shifts, rotating between day/afternoon/midnight, 60+ hours per week, being woken up after midnight shift for pointless meetings at 9am for <40k per year. Quitting that job was the best feeling ever. Saying that all jobs in america work less than <50 (when a normal week would be 40) is just as absurd as saying everyone works 80 hours with a 3 hour commute.
stuaxo 13y ago
45 - 50 sounds like a lot..
- myspace 13y ago
  A lot? Go to Mexico, 45 is the norm and 50+ is common

by pionar 13y ago

wikiburner 13y ago

Completely agree. I'm currently getting downvoted to hell on this thread for a little joke I made to mirror the strawman nature of his arguments: "Americanesque slavery system"??? "80 hour weeks"??? "3 hour commutes"??? What's galling (pardon the pun) is the arrogance that's often on display towards any company or country that has the temerity to question the wisdom of these rules: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323549204578316101127838118.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732354920457831... PG himself has posted this little graphic that illustrates quite nicely where the European economy is heading, no doubt in part because of these attitudes: http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/290-width/images/print-edition/20120728_FBC674.png http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/29...

harrytuttle 13y ago
Sorry - that was an exaggeration (or was it considering a lot of poorer people and debtors do two jobs and proportionally there are more of these people?) Yours is a pretty corporate-centric view of things and doesn't include mergers, manufacturing moving to the East, outsourcing and the rampant globalisation since the 1950's when communications and travel became considerably less tiresome... Most businesses by employee volume are SME's. Large businesses don't just suddenly appear. They grow over time.
- wikiburner 13y ago
  >(or was it considering a lot of poorer people and debtors do two jobs and proportionally there are more of these people?) Being an American, the only people I've known who have had to work more than one job was because their first employer wouldn't give them enough hours because of the type of regulations and "work rules" you are championing. >Yours is a pretty corporate-centric view of things and doesn't include mergers, manufacturing moving to the East, outsourcing and the rampant globalisation since the 1950's when communications and travel became considerably less tiresome... I would view it as reality-centric. It's supply and demand. It turns out Western peoples aren't the only ones who can perform sophisticated labor in exchange for payment. People in the East have every right to participate in the global economy. Your original comment stated: "we're there to get paid for our time". You're wrong - it's not kindergarten. You're paid in exchange for the value you bring to your employer. >Most businesses by employee volume are SME's. Large businesses don't just suddenly appear. They grow over time. That's the point of the chart. They aren't suddenly appearing (successful startups) or growing over time. From what I've heard, many of the legacy Euro-corps (Airbus for example) have a pretty incestuous relationship with the government. All told, it doesn't sound like a very healthy business ecosystem.
tinkerina 13y ago
That little graphic only shows that Europeans are now less likely to create huge companies, and has nothing to do with the stability of the local economy there. For example, Germany has a strong economy built around an agglomeration of small and medium-sized businesses. More about the "Mittelstand": http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/working/introducing-the-german-mittelstand/ http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/working/introducing-the...
mike-cardwell 13y ago
I'd be more interested in seeing the equivalent graph but for small companies, rather than big companies.

johnward 13y ago

You say 45-50 hours like it's nothing though. That's still a lot of time. I guess I'm technically midwest (rust belt). I do spend 3 hours on the road a day when I have to commute. I did it for 8 years and can't handle it anymore, so I negotiate to work remotely. There are shitty tech jobs out there and I've worked a few of them. 24 hour on call, 12 hour shifts, rotating between day/afternoon/midnight, 60+ hours per week, being woken up after midnight shift for pointless meetings at 9am for <40k per year. Quitting that job was the best feeling ever. Saying that all jobs in america work less than <50 (when a normal week would be 40) is just as absurd as saying everyone works 80 hours with a 3 hour commute.

stuaxo 13y ago

45 - 50 sounds like a lot..

myspace 13y ago
A lot? Go to Mexico, 45 is the norm and 50+ is common