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I never counted the hours I spend at my job. Not once. Lucky for me, probably, neither does my employer. I'm paid to get the job done, not to show my face at th

I never counted the hours I spend at my job. Not once. Lucky for me, probably, neither does my employer. I'm paid to get the job done, not to show my face at the office for a certain amount of time per week. Some weeks are more intense than others. It happens, so what? I'll put in the extra effort, and get the job done. It helps staying motivated when the bosses are putting in the extra hours with you. The opposite of what you call "Americanesque slavery system" is this, oh-so-common system in France, where people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work. I spend too much time working to not care. If my job wasn't fulfilling I wouldn't be doing it. Disclaimer: I'm in my twenties with no family to feed, no financial debt and generally very little financial responsibilities. I don't know how long I can afford demanding having an interesting job.

mike-cardwell 13y ago
"people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work." I'd wager a higher proportion of people in the US feel this way about their job than in France. At least a dead end job in France gives you reasonable work hours and plenty of holiday.
- johnward 13y ago
  I agree. I've been in those dead end corporate jobs. People just grind through the day with hopes that they can take those 2 weeks of vacation to enjoy a little bit of their life.
harrytuttle 13y ago
"people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work" The thing is that I do have a passion for my job, but I want to keep that passion, not let it burn me out and then resent it for the rest of my life. I pace myself rather than burn out. Disclaimer: I'm in my thirties with 4 other people and a dog to feed and have a hefty mortgage to pay off as well, yet I work less time than people without that responsibilty
- johnward 13y ago
  As you can see by the op's comment: Wanting time away from work is not acceptable in the land of capitalism. Everyone should want to spend their "quality" time at work. Fuck family, right?
  - harrytuttle 13y ago
    Indeed. People don't "get" family until they have one. The people who don't "get" family are doing those who do "get" family a big disservice. The problem is that they most likely will have family one day so they're only burying themselves too with this attitude. And capitalism is as you say, waiting to milk them.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    As an aside, on the lower-end of the wage earner spectrum some of these people need time away from their job so they can get to their second low-wage job.
    - johnward 13y ago
      That is true, but generally in that position you are paid for overtime.
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        As someone who has worked a fair amount of overtime, that extra pay is more than deserved. Working overtime drives up the cost to the employee of most things related to maintaining employment. Laundry? no time, send it to the cleaners. Lunch? No time to brown bag it, have to eat out. Supper? Same thing sometimes. Got a lawn? Better find someone to mow it. A lot of mundane things come unraveled when sustained overtime becomes a requirement.
TorKlingberg 13y ago
> I'm paid to get the job done, not to show my face at the office for a certain amount of time per week. I have seen this argument many times in discussion forums, so I have to ask: Do you have a defined amount of work to do? Where I work, there is always something more to do. If nothing else, then code improvements, adding tests, improving internal systems or less important features. In fact, an important part of my job is deciding what I should do next.
logn 13y ago
> I'm paid to get the job done [...] Some weeks are more intense than others. Instead of defining 'the job' in terms of the end result, you could think of it as 'your time'. Fundamentally the company is telling you, as the 80 hr/week crunchtime worker and 25 hr/week downtime worker, that you're only worth to them what it is you output. That's fine, but I'm a software engineer too, and I like my time being valued by the hour. I get no share of the enormous profits what I help make might earn, so if I work double the hours one week to delight a client, I expect to be paid for every hour (and 'time and a half' pay) for doing that, seeing that as a good chance for me to bill more hours. I saw no logic in this as a salaried worker, because if I worked 90 hours one week, it was never possible to expect the next 6 working days off (and even if it were, if I weren't in the mood for vacation that would not have interested me anyway). Granted, I also pay for my own healthcare and everything else, but I enjoy that too. I see myself as my own product, selling it to my client by the hour, and doing what I want when I want.
rayiner 13y ago
> where people have no passion for their job I think that's better than the situation we have in America, where employees are expected to have passion for their job but employers are not expected to have any passion for their employees. I'm lucky. I very much enjoy and feel passionate about my job. But I resent the assertion that I ought to feel that way. My employer wouldn't hesitate to lay me off if some consultant said it would improve the bottom line, and I won't hesitate to jump ship if I get a better offer somewhere else. I owe my employer a good faith effort. I choose to go above and beyond that only because it serves my purposes.
conradfr 13y ago
Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. I've done it and will do it again. When work is interesting it does not really feel like work, does it ? :) As a developer I would love flexible schedule, getting the job done when it's need to be done etc. But what I generally find in France is poor and inflexible management culture. I don't call "unpaid overtime because of poor planning but still come everyday at 9:00 thanks" flexible. And I hate how in certain industry it is said to be "expected" or "normal". I have high (non-CS) skilled friends who do long unpaid hours and if you divide their earnings by the hours they do, they effectively get minimum wage. Getting a burn out or depression from minimum wage, that's not a great deal.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. If it is occasional, I think it is fine. If OTOH it is a regular occurrence that an employer depends upon, and others who are less willing to join in are compelled to stay because an expectation has been cultivated, that is wrong.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. Not wrong, but unprofessional. It poisons the well for the people not willing to do it, and it gives the picture (to your employer) that you are a sucker eager to be exploited, and your time is worth nothing. And when layoffs time come, he could not care less if you did "unpaid overtime" to save some project on death march.
coldtea 13y ago
>The opposite of what you call "Americanesque slavery system" is this, oh-so-common system in France, where people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work. Ever been to France? Or talked to French working people? For that matter, ever talked to US office drones? >Disclaimer: I'm in my twenties with no family to feed, no financial debt and generally very little financial responsibilities. I don't know how long I can afford demanding having an interesting job. So, basically "I'm under thirty that happens to have an interesting job and no family, and I have no idea how my experience relates to the rest of the working population out there, but I'm going extrapolate anyway".

mike-cardwell 13y ago

"people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work." I'd wager a higher proportion of people in the US feel this way about their job than in France. At least a dead end job in France gives you reasonable work hours and plenty of holiday.

johnward 13y ago
I agree. I've been in those dead end corporate jobs. People just grind through the day with hopes that they can take those 2 weeks of vacation to enjoy a little bit of their life.

harrytuttle 13y ago

"people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work" The thing is that I do have a passion for my job, but I want to keep that passion, not let it burn me out and then resent it for the rest of my life. I pace myself rather than burn out. Disclaimer: I'm in my thirties with 4 other people and a dog to feed and have a hefty mortgage to pay off as well, yet I work less time than people without that responsibilty

johnward 13y ago
As you can see by the op's comment: Wanting time away from work is not acceptable in the land of capitalism. Everyone should want to spend their "quality" time at work. Fuck family, right?
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  Indeed. People don't "get" family until they have one. The people who don't "get" family are doing those who do "get" family a big disservice. The problem is that they most likely will have family one day so they're only burying themselves too with this attitude. And capitalism is as you say, waiting to milk them.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  As an aside, on the lower-end of the wage earner spectrum some of these people need time away from their job so they can get to their second low-wage job.
  - johnward 13y ago
    That is true, but generally in that position you are paid for overtime.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      As someone who has worked a fair amount of overtime, that extra pay is more than deserved. Working overtime drives up the cost to the employee of most things related to maintaining employment. Laundry? no time, send it to the cleaners. Lunch? No time to brown bag it, have to eat out. Supper? Same thing sometimes. Got a lawn? Better find someone to mow it. A lot of mundane things come unraveled when sustained overtime becomes a requirement.

TorKlingberg 13y ago

> I'm paid to get the job done, not to show my face at the office for a certain amount of time per week. I have seen this argument many times in discussion forums, so I have to ask: Do you have a defined amount of work to do? Where I work, there is always something more to do. If nothing else, then code improvements, adding tests, improving internal systems or less important features. In fact, an important part of my job is deciding what I should do next.

logn 13y ago

> I'm paid to get the job done [...] Some weeks are more intense than others. Instead of defining 'the job' in terms of the end result, you could think of it as 'your time'. Fundamentally the company is telling you, as the 80 hr/week crunchtime worker and 25 hr/week downtime worker, that you're only worth to them what it is you output. That's fine, but I'm a software engineer too, and I like my time being valued by the hour. I get no share of the enormous profits what I help make might earn, so if I work double the hours one week to delight a client, I expect to be paid for every hour (and 'time and a half' pay) for doing that, seeing that as a good chance for me to bill more hours. I saw no logic in this as a salaried worker, because if I worked 90 hours one week, it was never possible to expect the next 6 working days off (and even if it were, if I weren't in the mood for vacation that would not have interested me anyway). Granted, I also pay for my own healthcare and everything else, but I enjoy that too. I see myself as my own product, selling it to my client by the hour, and doing what I want when I want.

rayiner 13y ago

> where people have no passion for their job I think that's better than the situation we have in America, where employees are expected to have passion for their job but employers are not expected to have any passion for their employees. I'm lucky. I very much enjoy and feel passionate about my job. But I resent the assertion that I ought to feel that way. My employer wouldn't hesitate to lay me off if some consultant said it would improve the bottom line, and I won't hesitate to jump ship if I get a better offer somewhere else. I owe my employer a good faith effort. I choose to go above and beyond that only because it serves my purposes.

conradfr 13y ago

Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. I've done it and will do it again. When work is interesting it does not really feel like work, does it ? :) As a developer I would love flexible schedule, getting the job done when it's need to be done etc. But what I generally find in France is poor and inflexible management culture. I don't call "unpaid overtime because of poor planning but still come everyday at 9:00 thanks" flexible. And I hate how in certain industry it is said to be "expected" or "normal". I have high (non-CS) skilled friends who do long unpaid hours and if you divide their earnings by the hours they do, they effectively get minimum wage. Getting a burn out or depression from minimum wage, that's not a great deal.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. If it is occasional, I think it is fine. If OTOH it is a regular occurrence that an employer depends upon, and others who are less willing to join in are compelled to stay because an expectation has been cultivated, that is wrong.
coldtea 13y ago
>Unpaid overtime when you're doing it willingly is not wrong per se. Not wrong, but unprofessional. It poisons the well for the people not willing to do it, and it gives the picture (to your employer) that you are a sucker eager to be exploited, and your time is worth nothing. And when layoffs time come, he could not care less if you did "unpaid overtime" to save some project on death march.

coldtea 13y ago

>The opposite of what you call "Americanesque slavery system" is this, oh-so-common system in France, where people have no passion for their job, care only about the salary and picture quality time only "outside" of work. Ever been to France? Or talked to French working people? For that matter, ever talked to US office drones? >Disclaimer: I'm in my twenties with no family to feed, no financial debt and generally very little financial responsibilities. I don't know how long I can afford demanding having an interesting job. So, basically "I'm under thirty that happens to have an interesting job and no family, and I have no idea how my experience relates to the rest of the working population out there, but I'm going extrapolate anyway".