5 ms·

SpaceX processing units, radiation-tolerant by design (2012)

62 points by ash 13y ago

kristoffer 13y ago
It would have been interesting to hear more about their future road map since they are currently only doing low earth orbit but aim for Mars. The radiation environment is quite different of course. Maybe certain fabrication technologies (geometry/SOI/packaging) will produce COTS semiconductors which can take a lot of total dose. I'm not sure of the status of this. Does anybody have any insights? I would think that the biggest benefit of using COTS is performance and developer efficiency. It is certainly possible to run Linux on the available rad hard parts (PPC, SPARC, MIPS) but due to low usage the development environment will not be as good.
- shabble 13y ago
  If they manage to depress the cost-to-orbit sufficiently, they'll maybe be able to take more shielding along. It might even be dual-use stuff like carefully placed water tanks or stacks of prefab building materials, which can then be used on the journey or at the destination. On the hardening ICs specifically, I recall that SOI is potentially a better performing technology than bulk silicon wafers, the actual performance drop is due to much larger feature sizes to better handle low-energy rad strikes. I suspect (but haven't looked in a long time) that the performance could be radically improved if they could develop the process to modern equivalents, but the economics just aren't there. I was just wondering if it would be possible to use ECC on the core internals rather than just the RAM, and it looks like someone has considered it for the register file[1] I suppose it might be useful on the instruction pipeline as well, and other places. Then again, it may be just easier all round to take the SpaceX current approach of many simple cores, and redundancy in software. [1] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4708869 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4708869
  - kristoffer 13y ago
    The register file and cache is typically protected with some kind of ECC. The other parts of the CPU are protected by using rad hard flip flops (be it either TMR or other means). But this is the road SpaceX is not taking ... And all these techniques only protect against soft errors. I was more interested in how to mitigate against permanent errors (latchup) and tolerating high total dose when using commercial components. Will they do this by screening components which are manufactured using potential good fabrication process e.g. SOI.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      It seems like if they can on average use smaller parts and more of them, then it just comes down to statistics - permanent chip damage isn't impossible in rad-hard electronics, just less likely. I suspect it'll come down to a test though - at some SpaceX are going to launch an unmanned Dragon to Mars, and that will be more then anything a fascinating exercise in really understanding the deep space radiation environment, which we still do not know nearly enough about.
- foobarqux 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening
moocowduckquack 13y ago
"The reason we have three is when operating in proximity of ISS, we have to always have two computer strings voting on something on critical actions. We have three so we can tolerate a failure and still have two voting on each other. And that has nothing to do with radiation, that has to do with ensuring that we're safe when we're flying our vehicle in the proximity of the space station. I went into the lab earlier today, and we have 18 different processing units with computers in them. We have three main computers, but 18 units that have a computer of some kind, and all of them are triple computers – everything is three processors." This detail so reminded me of Clarke's Rama series. "And on far-off Earth, Dr. Carlisle Perera had as yet told no one how he had wakened from a restless sleep with the message from his subconscious still echoing in his brain: The Ramans do everything in threes."
doe88 13y ago
I think this paragraph resume their philosophy: > So building the computer for the Dragon isn't just about building the computer for the Dragon, it's about building a whole suite of tools, techniques, people and processes to then go to the next vehicle, and the next vehicle. And our equipment crosses lines. Falcon designs go into Dragon, we're currently retrofitting the Dragon design into the new Falcon, so our designs constantly keep evolving, and that's why we don't want to get into lines that have limited growth capacity. Their approach is all about reusability, evovability and scalability. And I think using a maximum of common code between all the different systems will only make this code stronger. They seem to counterbalance the hardware faults and software dangerousness of C++ by implementing a generalized voting mechanism where all decisions must be validated by two different computers. In this area and at this scale it seems to me that it's disruptive.
- foobarqux 13y ago
  > In this area and at this scale it seems to me that it's disruptive. It seems disruptive because you have no background in aerospace. This is bog standard.
JshWright 13y ago
The last question and answer sum up SpaceX perfectly: Q; So you're not breaking a mold here. A: We're taking it to an extent previously not done, but we're operating in a well known set of techniques and capabilities.
- foobarqux 13y ago
  I don't understand to what extent this hasn't been previously done. The design is pretty standard.
notjustanymike 13y ago
This feels all too like a video game. Radiation-hardened is a tank spec. Tons of health, tons of armor, but slow moving without a lot of DPS. Radiation-tolerant is an assassin spec. Not a lot of health or armor, but has crazy health regen and a diverse skillset.

62 points by ash 13y ago

It would have been interesting to hear more about their future road map since they are currently only doing low earth orbit but aim for Mars. The radiation environment is quite different of course. Maybe certain fabrication technologies (geometry/SOI/packaging) will produce COTS semiconductors which can take a lot of total dose. I'm not sure of the status of this. Does anybody have any insights? I would think that the biggest benefit of using COTS is performance and developer efficiency. It is certainly possible to run Linux on the available rad hard parts (PPC, SPARC, MIPS) but due to low usage the development environment will not be as good.

shabble 13y ago
If they manage to depress the cost-to-orbit sufficiently, they'll maybe be able to take more shielding along. It might even be dual-use stuff like carefully placed water tanks or stacks of prefab building materials, which can then be used on the journey or at the destination. On the hardening ICs specifically, I recall that SOI is potentially a better performing technology than bulk silicon wafers, the actual performance drop is due to much larger feature sizes to better handle low-energy rad strikes. I suspect (but haven't looked in a long time) that the performance could be radically improved if they could develop the process to modern equivalents, but the economics just aren't there. I was just wondering if it would be possible to use ECC on the core internals rather than just the RAM, and it looks like someone has considered it for the register file[1] I suppose it might be useful on the instruction pipeline as well, and other places. Then again, it may be just easier all round to take the SpaceX current approach of many simple cores, and redundancy in software. [1] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4708869 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4708869
- kristoffer 13y ago
  The register file and cache is typically protected with some kind of ECC. The other parts of the CPU are protected by using rad hard flip flops (be it either TMR or other means). But this is the road SpaceX is not taking ... And all these techniques only protect against soft errors. I was more interested in how to mitigate against permanent errors (latchup) and tolerating high total dose when using commercial components. Will they do this by screening components which are manufactured using potential good fabrication process e.g. SOI.
  - XorNot 13y ago
    It seems like if they can on average use smaller parts and more of them, then it just comes down to statistics - permanent chip damage isn't impossible in rad-hard electronics, just less likely. I suspect it'll come down to a test though - at some SpaceX are going to launch an unmanned Dragon to Mars, and that will be more then anything a fascinating exercise in really understanding the deep space radiation environment, which we still do not know nearly enough about.
foobarqux 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening

moocowduckquack 13y ago

"The reason we have three is when operating in proximity of ISS, we have to always have two computer strings voting on something on critical actions. We have three so we can tolerate a failure and still have two voting on each other. And that has nothing to do with radiation, that has to do with ensuring that we're safe when we're flying our vehicle in the proximity of the space station. I went into the lab earlier today, and we have 18 different processing units with computers in them. We have three main computers, but 18 units that have a computer of some kind, and all of them are triple computers – everything is three processors." This detail so reminded me of Clarke's Rama series. "And on far-off Earth, Dr. Carlisle Perera had as yet told no one how he had wakened from a restless sleep with the message from his subconscious still echoing in his brain: The Ramans do everything in threes."

doe88 13y ago

I think this paragraph resume their philosophy: > So building the computer for the Dragon isn't just about building the computer for the Dragon, it's about building a whole suite of tools, techniques, people and processes to then go to the next vehicle, and the next vehicle. And our equipment crosses lines. Falcon designs go into Dragon, we're currently retrofitting the Dragon design into the new Falcon, so our designs constantly keep evolving, and that's why we don't want to get into lines that have limited growth capacity. Their approach is all about reusability, evovability and scalability. And I think using a maximum of common code between all the different systems will only make this code stronger. They seem to counterbalance the hardware faults and software dangerousness of C++ by implementing a generalized voting mechanism where all decisions must be validated by two different computers. In this area and at this scale it seems to me that it's disruptive.

foobarqux 13y ago
> In this area and at this scale it seems to me that it's disruptive. It seems disruptive because you have no background in aerospace. This is bog standard.

JshWright 13y ago

The last question and answer sum up SpaceX perfectly: Q; So you're not breaking a mold here. A: We're taking it to an extent previously not done, but we're operating in a well known set of techniques and capabilities.

foobarqux 13y ago
I don't understand to what extent this hasn't been previously done. The design is pretty standard.

notjustanymike 13y ago

This feels all too like a video game. Radiation-hardened is a tank spec. Tons of health, tons of armor, but slow moving without a lot of DPS. Radiation-tolerant is an assassin spec. Not a lot of health or armor, but has crazy health regen and a diverse skillset.