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I guess there's a distinction between remaking music and copying it (bit-for-bit) that people aren't seeing. Or, they see, and don't care. Now, if you make the

I guess there's a distinction between remaking music and copying it (bit-for-bit) that people aren't seeing. Or, they see, and don't care. Now, if you make the 2000th cover of "Yesterday" and sell it, that's one thing. If you take the original 2 minute recording of "Yesterday", add yourself belching on top of it, and sell it as your "own", then you're a thief and an artistic wrecker. I think this comes down to opinion. The principle is firm, but the disgust is sometimes lacking. When this little gem was released, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJePNFkkvFk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJePNFkkvFk ...the outrage was vicious and near-universal. DM is doing the exact same thing, and I would argue, to a much, much greater extent, because he isn't contributing, you know, actual music, like the above recording.

menloparkbum 17y ago
This seems like a matter of taste. Certain people were apoplectic about the Kenny G. But tons of people actually loved that Kenny G thing (look at the youtube comments). Scary, but true. The Grey Album seems to draw the most ire from Beatles fans who consider their recordings sacrosanct. Personally I liked the 99 problems remix better than either of the two original songs. Related, I'd rather listen to a Girl Talk track before I'd listen to any one of the songs he samples...
- ssharp 17y ago
  You bring up some good points. But associating Danger Mouse with Girl Talk is doing Danger Mouse a HUGE disservice.
  - menloparkbum 17y ago
    I thought the other way around, but to each his own... >:)
deleted 17y ago
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GHFigs 17y ago
I guess there's a distinction between remaking music and copying it (bit-for-bit) that people aren't seeing. Define it.
- menloparkbum 17y ago
  Yeah that's a tough one. I have a musician friend who was obsessed with figuring out what equipment the neptunes used on certain songs and then remaking the instrumental part of the tracks. to my ears, they were pretty much indistinguishable from the originals. what's the distinction?
- mynameishere 17y ago
  I guess it doesn't seem too hard to define, but maybe the confusion is philosophical. When I say bit-for-bit, that's what I mean. When I say "remake" it involves using your own voice and instruments to make a new recording. That's actually been the default through all history. There's no "original recordings" for Beethoven's music. If you buy a pop song's sheet music, never having heard the song, that's a very traditional kind of making music, and completely appropriate. But really, philosophically. Here's an original recording (couldn't find the studio version): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZHmHqEE7k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZHmHqEE7k Okay, and here's a great remake. I say great because it's so completely original at the same time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVuh1Ymve2I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVuh1Ymve2I And here's a ripoff (sort of. The sampled parts were paid for), which you probably already guessed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3m4e45bTo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3m4e45bTo I really like that song, but that guy added very little to the original remake, so to speak.
  - Radix 17y ago
    Here is a link to a more original recording. http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/The_Last_Time/14716915 http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/The_Last_Time/14716915 If that second video is were the Verve stole their sample then I think there's was sufficiently different as to be new. It wasn't a real sample, not like "brush your shoulders off" ...I just heard that for the first time because of this story. I was getter mad just listening to it.
anigbrowl 17y ago
You raise an interesting point here - why is Kenny G's clarinet so insufferably cheesy to so many (including me), but Danger Mouse doing the same thing with a drum machine is hailed as a visionary (though I'm personally indifferent). I think the difference may be that while DM is no different, his contributions are at least contemporary; that doesn't make it better, just more fashionable. Clarinets used to be fashionable, and Kenny g's stock-in-trade is musical nostalgia: so nostalgia^2 is not an improvement to most people. On the other hand, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9iNoTKMAs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9iNoTKMAs (same song mashed up with Radiohead) presents the same melody in a different but interesting harmonic context - that is, in the same key but with different chords behind it. To me that's innovative, although I don't personally like Radiohead. On the other hand Kenny G's clarinet vampings seem completely unoriginal - as someone who uses sequencers because I'm poor at actually playing bass or piano, he's much better than me at operating his instrument, but isn't doing anything remotely novel with that ability (like introducing new rhythmic or harmonic tension, he's just echoing what's already there with a clarinet). Although we disagree, I think your points are interesting because I find myself wondering about things like this when I reach a site that mashes up (say) Craigslist with Google - is there really anything original going on here, or is it just digital glue, something the browser will do by itself in a few years?
- aboodman 17y ago
  Kenny G plays soprano saxophone, not clarinet. Insufferable either way, though.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    D'oh. Thank you.
joeyo 17y ago
I guess I'm just pragmatic about these things, but I find it difficult to think of any sort remix, mash-up or cover that could be done that would make someone an "artistic wrecker". Even your example of belching on top of "Yesterday", while not palatable to most people, perhaps, is still definitely art. It comes down to a matter of taste, not a matter of art. I would argue that this isn't even a particularly recent idea or something unique to music. See: Marcel Duchamp's Fountain (1917). As far as it being theft: nobody is going to buy Belching Yesterday under the illusion that they are getting a Beatles recording. There is no lost sale. There may be a possible copyright claim, but I don't think even this is completely cut and dry. Belching Yesterday could win in court as a fair use. You never know...

menloparkbum 17y ago

This seems like a matter of taste. Certain people were apoplectic about the Kenny G. But tons of people actually loved that Kenny G thing (look at the youtube comments). Scary, but true. The Grey Album seems to draw the most ire from Beatles fans who consider their recordings sacrosanct. Personally I liked the 99 problems remix better than either of the two original songs. Related, I'd rather listen to a Girl Talk track before I'd listen to any one of the songs he samples...

ssharp 17y ago
You bring up some good points. But associating Danger Mouse with Girl Talk is doing Danger Mouse a HUGE disservice.
- menloparkbum 17y ago
  I thought the other way around, but to each his own... >:)

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

GHFigs 17y ago

I guess there's a distinction between remaking music and copying it (bit-for-bit) that people aren't seeing. Define it.

menloparkbum 17y ago
Yeah that's a tough one. I have a musician friend who was obsessed with figuring out what equipment the neptunes used on certain songs and then remaking the instrumental part of the tracks. to my ears, they were pretty much indistinguishable from the originals. what's the distinction?
mynameishere 17y ago
I guess it doesn't seem too hard to define, but maybe the confusion is philosophical. When I say bit-for-bit, that's what I mean. When I say "remake" it involves using your own voice and instruments to make a new recording. That's actually been the default through all history. There's no "original recordings" for Beethoven's music. If you buy a pop song's sheet music, never having heard the song, that's a very traditional kind of making music, and completely appropriate. But really, philosophically. Here's an original recording (couldn't find the studio version): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZHmHqEE7k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZHmHqEE7k Okay, and here's a great remake. I say great because it's so completely original at the same time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVuh1Ymve2I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVuh1Ymve2I And here's a ripoff (sort of. The sampled parts were paid for), which you probably already guessed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3m4e45bTo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3m4e45bTo I really like that song, but that guy added very little to the original remake, so to speak.
- Radix 17y ago
  Here is a link to a more original recording. http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/The_Last_Time/14716915 http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/The_Last_Time/14716915 If that second video is were the Verve stole their sample then I think there's was sufficiently different as to be new. It wasn't a real sample, not like "brush your shoulders off" ...I just heard that for the first time because of this story. I was getter mad just listening to it.

anigbrowl 17y ago

You raise an interesting point here - why is Kenny G's clarinet so insufferably cheesy to so many (including me), but Danger Mouse doing the same thing with a drum machine is hailed as a visionary (though I'm personally indifferent). I think the difference may be that while DM is no different, his contributions are at least contemporary; that doesn't make it better, just more fashionable. Clarinets used to be fashionable, and Kenny g's stock-in-trade is musical nostalgia: so nostalgia^2 is not an improvement to most people. On the other hand, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9iNoTKMAs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9iNoTKMAs (same song mashed up with Radiohead) presents the same melody in a different but interesting harmonic context - that is, in the same key but with different chords behind it. To me that's innovative, although I don't personally like Radiohead. On the other hand Kenny G's clarinet vampings seem completely unoriginal - as someone who uses sequencers because I'm poor at actually playing bass or piano, he's much better than me at operating his instrument, but isn't doing anything remotely novel with that ability (like introducing new rhythmic or harmonic tension, he's just echoing what's already there with a clarinet). Although we disagree, I think your points are interesting because I find myself wondering about things like this when I reach a site that mashes up (say) Craigslist with Google - is there really anything original going on here, or is it just digital glue, something the browser will do by itself in a few years?

aboodman 17y ago
Kenny G plays soprano saxophone, not clarinet. Insufferable either way, though.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  D'oh. Thank you.

joeyo 17y ago

I guess I'm just pragmatic about these things, but I find it difficult to think of any sort remix, mash-up or cover that could be done that would make someone an "artistic wrecker". Even your example of belching on top of "Yesterday", while not palatable to most people, perhaps, is still definitely art. It comes down to a matter of taste, not a matter of art. I would argue that this isn't even a particularly recent idea or something unique to music. See: Marcel Duchamp's Fountain (1917). As far as it being theft: nobody is going to buy Belching Yesterday under the illusion that they are getting a Beatles recording. There is no lost sale. There may be a possible copyright claim, but I don't think even this is completely cut and dry. Belching Yesterday could win in court as a fair use. You never know...