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Fish responding to trolls in no way excuses the trolls harassing him. That's textbook victim blaming, and it's disgusting for it to come up here.

by ceol 13y ago

Macsenour 13y ago
I agree with your comment, but from the text it appears that anyone sending criticism was met with rage as an answer. That's not trolling.
- ceol 13y ago
  That's really not true. Almost all of his caustic responses were to people sending him shit. His post on the Steam forums was in response to trolls trashing his game. Just take a look at his forum posts.[0] Most are completely normal, while one or two are replying to jerks. Fish isn't exactly a saint, and I'd venture to say he's quite a jerk (I'm not a fan of the shit he said about Japanese games.[1]) But the number of times Fish has dished it out is vastly outweighed by the number of times he's taken it. [0]: http://steamcommunity.com/app/224760/discussions/search/?author=38844154 http://steamcommunity.com/app/224760/discussions/search/?aut... [1]: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-07-fez-creator-phil-fish-declares-modern-japanese-games-just-suck http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-07-fez-creator-phi...
GVIrish 13y ago
I don't think it's textbook victim blaming at all. If a guy goes around tossing beers in peoples' faces in bars and occasionally catches a beat down, I don't think it would be victim blaming to state that, 'Hey, maybe if he didn't throw beer in peoples' faces he wouldn't catch beat downs'. It doesn't mean anyone is condoning violent responses to provocation, just stating the role that the instigator played a role in the incident. Phil Fish repeatedly threw beer in the face of others and got a lot of vitriole in response.
ANTSANTS 13y ago
Ok, here's Phil responding to a polite and honest question (in person, and not over the safety of the internet!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw You can argue that no one ever deserves to be harassed online, but I think you'd have to be utterly oblivious to continually act that way in public and not expect to be hated.
- ceol 13y ago
  Yes, Fish has said some shitty things. Back when that happened, I was one of the people who argued against him and said he was a huge dick. But that doesn't mean he deserves a flurry of abusive and hateful speech; it means people should tell him to shut up and learn some manners. Surely you agree there's a difference between "being disliked" and "being on the receiving end of a torrent of abuse"?
  - feeenix 13y ago
    I think, in many ways, Fish's situation is a combination of the "perfect storm" of abrasive personality put into a situation where trolls can take advantage of that personality. I don't think anyone will say that Fish is a saint; he's certainly no Notch, or Gaben, or Tim Schafer. And I worry that a large portion of the hate that is directed at him is /because/ he's not someone who can take things in stride. I think what a lot of people who get accused of "victim blaming" are insinuating is that, if Fish could have taken criticism more in stride -- or, you know, been respectful of other people when they ask him legitimate questions -- when they were more innocuous and less extreme, then it might not have gotten this far. It's like he threw gasoline on a small fire and is bewildered at why his house is now burning down around him. Does he deserve it? Not at all; /nobody/ does. But perhaps we shouldn't all be so surprised at it when you try putting out a fire with gasoline.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  It's very important to be allowed to say publicly that things suck. I would argue that more people should do it. I'm not sure that's anywhere in the same league as what's being discussed here though. His comments in the video were harsh and opinionated and the questioner was disappointed with the answer, but as the same time he was being asked for an opinion and gave a fair one. That isn't necessarily what he does in his own twitter feed though and it's certainly not like the personal abuse described in the original article.
  - ANTSANTS 13y ago
    >It's very important to be allowed to say publicly that things suck. I would argue that more people should do it... His comments in the video were harsh and opinionated and the questioner was disappointed with the answer, but as the same time he was being asked for an opinion and gave a fair one. I totally agree about the need for honest criticism. If Jonathan Blow had started the reply, and Phil Fish had followed up with his apt comparison involving the Zelda games, they wouldn't have come across negatively to me at all. Seriously though, how can you not see how rude (and even mildly racist) his opening remarks are, especially when given to someone who is not fluent in the English language (and is thus likely to take what he says even more seriously)? "They suck. I'm sorry, but you guys need to get with the times and make better interfaces and like update your technology... we're totally kicking your ass... back then you guys were the king of the world, but your time has passed." What the fuck? How can people on here get bent out of shape over the mildest use of unnecessarily gendered language, but let something like that pass? To the sibling comment from PavlovCat's, obviously I can't get into their heads, but the impression I got was that the people on the panel were laughing at Phil's complete lack of tact. Listen again and hear Edmund exclaiming "oh wow" just before he bursts into laughter.
mortenjorck 13y ago
It doesn't excuse their behavior, nor does their behavior excuse his.

Fish responding to trolls in no way excuses the trolls harassing him. That's textbook victim blaming, and it's disgusting for it to come up here.

by ceol 13y ago

Fish responding to trolls in no way excuses the trolls harassing him. That's textbook victim blaming, and it's disgusting for it to come up here.

Macsenour 13y ago

I agree with your comment, but from the text it appears that anyone sending criticism was met with rage as an answer. That's not trolling.

ceol 13y ago
That's really not true. Almost all of his caustic responses were to people sending him shit. His post on the Steam forums was in response to trolls trashing his game. Just take a look at his forum posts.[0] Most are completely normal, while one or two are replying to jerks. Fish isn't exactly a saint, and I'd venture to say he's quite a jerk (I'm not a fan of the shit he said about Japanese games.[1]) But the number of times Fish has dished it out is vastly outweighed by the number of times he's taken it. [0]: http://steamcommunity.com/app/224760/discussions/search/?author=38844154 http://steamcommunity.com/app/224760/discussions/search/?aut... [1]: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-07-fez-creator-phil-fish-declares-modern-japanese-games-just-suck http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-07-fez-creator-phi...

GVIrish 13y ago

I don't think it's textbook victim blaming at all. If a guy goes around tossing beers in peoples' faces in bars and occasionally catches a beat down, I don't think it would be victim blaming to state that, 'Hey, maybe if he didn't throw beer in peoples' faces he wouldn't catch beat downs'. It doesn't mean anyone is condoning violent responses to provocation, just stating the role that the instigator played a role in the incident. Phil Fish repeatedly threw beer in the face of others and got a lot of vitriole in response.

ANTSANTS 13y ago

Ok, here's Phil responding to a polite and honest question (in person, and not over the safety of the internet!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPIcV6zsPw You can argue that no one ever deserves to be harassed online, but I think you'd have to be utterly oblivious to continually act that way in public and not expect to be hated.

ceol 13y ago
Yes, Fish has said some shitty things. Back when that happened, I was one of the people who argued against him and said he was a huge dick. But that doesn't mean he deserves a flurry of abusive and hateful speech; it means people should tell him to shut up and learn some manners. Surely you agree there's a difference between "being disliked" and "being on the receiving end of a torrent of abuse"?
- feeenix 13y ago
  I think, in many ways, Fish's situation is a combination of the "perfect storm" of abrasive personality put into a situation where trolls can take advantage of that personality. I don't think anyone will say that Fish is a saint; he's certainly no Notch, or Gaben, or Tim Schafer. And I worry that a large portion of the hate that is directed at him is /because/ he's not someone who can take things in stride. I think what a lot of people who get accused of "victim blaming" are insinuating is that, if Fish could have taken criticism more in stride -- or, you know, been respectful of other people when they ask him legitimate questions -- when they were more innocuous and less extreme, then it might not have gotten this far. It's like he threw gasoline on a small fire and is bewildered at why his house is now burning down around him. Does he deserve it? Not at all; /nobody/ does. But perhaps we shouldn't all be so surprised at it when you try putting out a fire with gasoline.
teamonkey 13y ago
It's very important to be allowed to say publicly that things suck. I would argue that more people should do it. I'm not sure that's anywhere in the same league as what's being discussed here though. His comments in the video were harsh and opinionated and the questioner was disappointed with the answer, but as the same time he was being asked for an opinion and gave a fair one. That isn't necessarily what he does in his own twitter feed though and it's certainly not like the personal abuse described in the original article.
- ANTSANTS 13y ago
  >It's very important to be allowed to say publicly that things suck. I would argue that more people should do it... His comments in the video were harsh and opinionated and the questioner was disappointed with the answer, but as the same time he was being asked for an opinion and gave a fair one. I totally agree about the need for honest criticism. If Jonathan Blow had started the reply, and Phil Fish had followed up with his apt comparison involving the Zelda games, they wouldn't have come across negatively to me at all. Seriously though, how can you not see how rude (and even mildly racist) his opening remarks are, especially when given to someone who is not fluent in the English language (and is thus likely to take what he says even more seriously)? "They suck. I'm sorry, but you guys need to get with the times and make better interfaces and like update your technology... we're totally kicking your ass... back then you guys were the king of the world, but your time has passed." What the fuck? How can people on here get bent out of shape over the mildest use of unnecessarily gendered language, but let something like that pass? To the sibling comment from PavlovCat's, obviously I can't get into their heads, but the impression I got was that the people on the panel were laughing at Phil's complete lack of tact. Listen again and hear Edmund exclaiming "oh wow" just before he bursts into laughter.

mortenjorck 13y ago

It doesn't excuse their behavior, nor does their behavior excuse his.