4 ms·

That's what we get for breeding a society of consumers. If you don't have a meaningful way to express yourself productively, you pour all that tension into the

That's what we get for breeding a society of consumers. If you don't have a meaningful way to express yourself productively, you pour all that tension into the wrong things. You become a buly, a stalker, a heckler, you name it. You get worked up about your experiences with other people's creative output, instead of channeling all that energy into your own endeavours. I think the world would be much better off if we encouraged everyone of all ages to develop creative hobbies, instead of spending all their leisure time passively consuming the work of others. Then they would all gain a better perspective on the whole creative process and feel more accomplished all around - and happier for it!

pubby 13y ago
There are tons of creative people who have an issue with Fish. It's slightly frustrating to see someone with mediocre talent become hugely popular, but it can be infuriating when they make comments like, "i just won the grand prize at IGF tonight. suck my dick. choke on it." He's given "indie" game developers a bad name.
- GVIrish 13y ago
  Exactly. I do think a lot of people in the game industry get abuse they don't deserve, but Phil earned a lot more abuse than average with his personality.
tks2103 13y ago
I'm not sure that the responsibility lies with people or society at large. Do you believe people on Twitter do not have the resources available to attempt creative works? Furthermore, do you believe that, without being creative, it is not possible for a person to refrain from telling a game designer to kill himself? I believe that individuals making death threats or rape threats on the internet are generally making individual choices with full knowledge of the repercussions. I do not believe they have any reasonable excuse justifying their actions. The responsibility for understanding and identifying how deeply they can damage another human is solely theirs.
- null_ptr 13y ago
  "Do you believe people on Twitter do not have the resources available to attempt creative works?" They do, but they're overwhelmed by the vast amount of empty content ready for consumption. It's so damn easy to chill out clicking this and that, and fall in a rut where that's all you do in the leisure time you spend at your desk. We should try to find a way to actively encourage people to pick up a creative hobby (or more than one!) as a form of therapy, even. "Furthermore, do you believe that, without being creative, it is not possible for a person to refrain from telling a game designer to kill himself?" I think outbursts like that come from immature, intellectually under-developed people who would grow immensely from pursuing a creative hobby.
  - superbaconman 13y ago
    The tools to create and the networks to share already exist but the trouble is getting people to enjoy creation. Fix this and you might create tomorrow's economy.
  - tks2103 13y ago
    My greater point was that I don't think "we should actively encourage people to pick up a creative hobby" in response to those people making death threats. There are already people who are choosing to pick up creative hobbies. Those people make games. People that make games get crucified by gamers who do not like their decisions. Those gamers make death threats. The people who make death threats can easily enough make something creative. Certainly there is no larger barrier for them when compared to someone like Phil Fish. I do not think we need to make it easier to expect better behavior from someone who is making a death threat. We need to prioritize the people who made the extra effort to actually get up and make something over the people who chose to directly threaten the lives of the creator.
- lmm 13y ago
  >I believe that individuals making death threats or rape threats on the internet are generally making individual choices with full knowledge of the repercussions. I do not believe they have any reasonable excuse justifying their actions. The responsibility for understanding and identifying how deeply they can damage another human is solely theirs. Fine. What are you going to do about it? Imprison them? Highly counterproductive. Complain about them on the internet? They live for that. Sit back and do nothing? Grandparent proposed a positive course of action that they believe will effect change. Asking whose fault or responsibility the problem is is missing the point; what we should focus on is how to solve it.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
I think that's a part of it but it's not the whole story. It's not just a society of consumers, it's a society of ... well, children really, although that might be too insulting. "Dependents" might be better. A society of people who are increasingly urbanized, increasingly educated, increasingly always online. And some of that is good but it has come along with and enabled a culture of dependence. People expect that society at large and the state specifically is going to be there to help them out. Help them get their car back on the road, defend them from the bad guys, keep a roof over their heads, keep their bellies full, and so on. This is the "brave new world" route. A population that's blissed out and utterly incapable of self-reliance. Add to that a somewhat related phenomenon which I'll just call "fuck the rich". The idea being that those who are wealthy/famous/successful somehow "have more" than their "fair share" and therefore are less deserving of social niceties and are a valid target for abuse. The justification being that "they're rich" (or famous or whatever) and "can take it" or "deserve it". It's surprising how quickly this view has become lodges in the zeitgeist. Here's a revealing little test: if you could press a magic button which would randomly pick someone who made more than $200k/yr in the US and, via a robot or magic or whatever, punch them HARD in the face but at the same time pick someone randomly in the US who made less than $15k/yr and give them $1k in cash would you press the button? How many times? How many people would press the button? How much? Would they feel bad about it? Add to that the general vitriol that stews in some parts of the internet due to anonymity and a variety of other factors and you get the conditions that this story talks about. It's pretty disgusting, and it's probably not going to just magically go away just by hoping it does. So what are we going to do about it?
- null_ptr 13y ago
  "So what are we going to do about it?" Be kind and empathic to those around you, and call out those around you who are not. Try to use technology to further liberate people's minds from the drudgery of everyday life and give them that time back, for them to invest in actively bettering themselves. Long term, institute a living wage such that everyone is freed from the worries of everyday survival and develops a kinder, less stressed mindset. A lot of the hostility we see on and off line would go away.
  - 13y ago
lmm 13y ago
>That's what we get for breeding a society of consumers. If you don't have a meaningful way to express yourself productively, you pour all that tension into the wrong things. You become a buly, a stalker, a heckler, you name it. You get worked up about your experiences with other people's creative output, instead of channeling all that energy into your own endeavours. Citation needed, because the correlation goes in the opposite direction - to me it looks like as more people take up creative endeavours, the hate they face grows ever faster.

pubby 13y ago

There are tons of creative people who have an issue with Fish. It's slightly frustrating to see someone with mediocre talent become hugely popular, but it can be infuriating when they make comments like, "i just won the grand prize at IGF tonight. suck my dick. choke on it." He's given "indie" game developers a bad name.

GVIrish 13y ago
Exactly. I do think a lot of people in the game industry get abuse they don't deserve, but Phil earned a lot more abuse than average with his personality.

tks2103 13y ago

I'm not sure that the responsibility lies with people or society at large. Do you believe people on Twitter do not have the resources available to attempt creative works? Furthermore, do you believe that, without being creative, it is not possible for a person to refrain from telling a game designer to kill himself? I believe that individuals making death threats or rape threats on the internet are generally making individual choices with full knowledge of the repercussions. I do not believe they have any reasonable excuse justifying their actions. The responsibility for understanding and identifying how deeply they can damage another human is solely theirs.

null_ptr 13y ago
"Do you believe people on Twitter do not have the resources available to attempt creative works?" They do, but they're overwhelmed by the vast amount of empty content ready for consumption. It's so damn easy to chill out clicking this and that, and fall in a rut where that's all you do in the leisure time you spend at your desk. We should try to find a way to actively encourage people to pick up a creative hobby (or more than one!) as a form of therapy, even. "Furthermore, do you believe that, without being creative, it is not possible for a person to refrain from telling a game designer to kill himself?" I think outbursts like that come from immature, intellectually under-developed people who would grow immensely from pursuing a creative hobby.
- superbaconman 13y ago
  The tools to create and the networks to share already exist but the trouble is getting people to enjoy creation. Fix this and you might create tomorrow's economy.
- tks2103 13y ago
  My greater point was that I don't think "we should actively encourage people to pick up a creative hobby" in response to those people making death threats. There are already people who are choosing to pick up creative hobbies. Those people make games. People that make games get crucified by gamers who do not like their decisions. Those gamers make death threats. The people who make death threats can easily enough make something creative. Certainly there is no larger barrier for them when compared to someone like Phil Fish. I do not think we need to make it easier to expect better behavior from someone who is making a death threat. We need to prioritize the people who made the extra effort to actually get up and make something over the people who chose to directly threaten the lives of the creator.
lmm 13y ago
>I believe that individuals making death threats or rape threats on the internet are generally making individual choices with full knowledge of the repercussions. I do not believe they have any reasonable excuse justifying their actions. The responsibility for understanding and identifying how deeply they can damage another human is solely theirs. Fine. What are you going to do about it? Imprison them? Highly counterproductive. Complain about them on the internet? They live for that. Sit back and do nothing? Grandparent proposed a positive course of action that they believe will effect change. Asking whose fault or responsibility the problem is is missing the point; what we should focus on is how to solve it.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

I think that's a part of it but it's not the whole story. It's not just a society of consumers, it's a society of ... well, children really, although that might be too insulting. "Dependents" might be better. A society of people who are increasingly urbanized, increasingly educated, increasingly always online. And some of that is good but it has come along with and enabled a culture of dependence. People expect that society at large and the state specifically is going to be there to help them out. Help them get their car back on the road, defend them from the bad guys, keep a roof over their heads, keep their bellies full, and so on. This is the "brave new world" route. A population that's blissed out and utterly incapable of self-reliance. Add to that a somewhat related phenomenon which I'll just call "fuck the rich". The idea being that those who are wealthy/famous/successful somehow "have more" than their "fair share" and therefore are less deserving of social niceties and are a valid target for abuse. The justification being that "they're rich" (or famous or whatever) and "can take it" or "deserve it". It's surprising how quickly this view has become lodges in the zeitgeist. Here's a revealing little test: if you could press a magic button which would randomly pick someone who made more than $200k/yr in the US and, via a robot or magic or whatever, punch them HARD in the face but at the same time pick someone randomly in the US who made less than $15k/yr and give them $1k in cash would you press the button? How many times? How many people would press the button? How much? Would they feel bad about it? Add to that the general vitriol that stews in some parts of the internet due to anonymity and a variety of other factors and you get the conditions that this story talks about. It's pretty disgusting, and it's probably not going to just magically go away just by hoping it does. So what are we going to do about it?

null_ptr 13y ago
"So what are we going to do about it?" Be kind and empathic to those around you, and call out those around you who are not. Try to use technology to further liberate people's minds from the drudgery of everyday life and give them that time back, for them to invest in actively bettering themselves. Long term, institute a living wage such that everyone is freed from the worries of everyday survival and develops a kinder, less stressed mindset. A lot of the hostility we see on and off line would go away.
- 13y ago

lmm 13y ago

>That's what we get for breeding a society of consumers. If you don't have a meaningful way to express yourself productively, you pour all that tension into the wrong things. You become a buly, a stalker, a heckler, you name it. You get worked up about your experiences with other people's creative output, instead of channeling all that energy into your own endeavours. Citation needed, because the correlation goes in the opposite direction - to me it looks like as more people take up creative endeavours, the hate they face grows ever faster.