6 ms·

None of these "date rape drugs" even come close to comparing to alcohol. It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to

by keevie 13y ago

None of these "date rape drugs" even come close to comparing to alcohol. It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Once you start using scary drugs that no one has ever heard of, then wow, that's something we can condemn. Especially since no one we know would ever do such a thing.

justinsteele 13y ago
That's arguable. I think the line between "these friends know each other and have been flirtatious in the past, it's okay that they got drunk one night and hooked up" and "this random person put a date rape drug in that other person's drink so they could take advantage of their state" is extremely large.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> "this random person put a date rape drug in that other person's drink so they could take advantage of their state" This is the straw man in the situation though - it's usually someone the victim knows. (edit: I'm not really sure straw man is the right term here...)
  - g4m8i7 13y ago
    Closer to False Dichotomy.
- ryusage 13y ago
  I think keevie's comment was referring more to a situation in which two strangers meet, one buys many drinks for the other, and then, once very drunk, gets them into bed. If you ask 100 people if that's wrong to do, I'm pretty confident that you're going to get much more conflicting answers than if you ask them about either of your two examples. On the one hand, it's basically what a lot of people just take as the norm. They think that's what you're supposed to do at bars. On the other, it also just happens to be a way to make someone much less resistant to doing things they would never do otherwise.
  - tsotha 13y ago
    The problem is "drunk" is a range (or "very drunk", as you would have it). Clearly it's wrong to have sex with someone who's passed out. And with someone who's almost passed out. And with someone who's almost almost passed out. After that it gets a bit more murky. How drunk is the other party? Is there an existing relationship?
jtreminio 13y ago
> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Christ.
arkades 13y ago
I don't think people are more tolerant of alcohol because it's more familiar. I think people are more tolerant of it because the imbiber is usually cognizant of what they're drinking, and does so willingly. Having something done to you without your knowledge or consent IS scarier than having someone persuade you to get carried away with something you're already choosing to do.
- ryusage 13y ago
  That's a fair point. I would think that it's a bit of both, rather than either/or. It's worth pointing out though that just because it's less scary doesn't mean it's less problematic.
DanBC 13y ago
> It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. They really do. Drunk consent isn't consent, and people leave themselves open to accusations of, and convictions for, rape if they have sex with drunk people.
- asdasf 13y ago
  >Drunk consent isn't consent Legally it is. >people leave themselves open to accusations of, and convictions for, rape if they have sex with drunk people. People are always open to accusations. I can't find evidence of a single conviction for someone consenting to sex while intoxicated. Only when causing the intoxication in the first place, without consent, does further consent get negated.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    > >Drunk consent isn't consent > Legally it is. Not where I live.
    - asdasf 13y ago
      Where do you live? Can you cite a law or case that demonstrates you are correct in your belief?
      - anon1385 13y ago
        Incase he doesn't reply, I'm fairly sure DanBC lives in the UK. Here is a recent widely publicised case: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/21/ched-evans-loses-rape-appeal http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/21/ched-evans-loses-ra... In April, the 23-year-old striker was jailed for five years for raping a teenager who was too drunk to consent to sex with him
    - sk5t 13y ago
      Just out of curiosity, is drunk driving not driving in your jurisdiction?
king_jester 13y ago
> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Uh what? Getting someone drunk so you can impair their ability to consent or so you can overpower them is most certainly wrong.
- tassl 13y ago
  I think he was being sarcastic on how buying somebody drinks is considered socially ok (even expected on some countries).
Nursie 13y ago
>> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ It is, sorry. There's nothing wrong with two people having a few drinks and going to bed together. But it's at the very least creepy to plan to knock someone's inhibitions down that way, or to take advantage of them. >> It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. You've now gone beyond creepy.
- jmduke 13y ago
  I'm giving the commenter the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he means that "there's nothing wrong with getting someone hammered to try and sleep with them", he means that "society seems to have a much smaller problem with getting someone hammered to try and sleep with them despite it being the same basic idea as GHB."
  - keevie 13y ago
    Exactly. A much, much smaller problem.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    Dunno. To me there's a vast differnce between getting pissed and falling into bed with someone as a mutual "WAHEY! let's go for it!" thing and "if I keep buying her drinks maybe she'll get drunk enough to take her top off". The latter seems little better than spiking them. --edit-- OK so I've read his other comments and it was clearly a comment on society and meant to be taken at anything but face value. I'll be the first to admit that in discussions like these I can easily suffer from a sense of humour failure, if not a complete lack of sarcasm detection.
- nicolethenerd 13y ago
  Pretty sure keevie was being sarcastic.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    My meter is off this week, and the whole troll/poe thing is still settling down in my brain. If it was a comment on societal attitudes then cool, am on board.
rsofaer 13y ago
You are very wrong that no one objects to people using alcohol as a date rape drug, and I don't hesitate to condemn anyone who pressures someone else into drinking in order to control them. Another reason the attitude you display here is alarming is that it may be difficult to tell the difference between a drunk person and a drugged person. It's not like the victim falls unconscious and the attacker carries them away. Someone who has been slipped GHB might be perceived by the people around them as having gotten drunk deliberately, for example.
regal 13y ago
You mean no one really objects to people drinking enough to make bad decisions with one another, then hating themselves for it so much that they... proceed to go out again and get drunk again and make bad decisions with one another again, and do it over and over and over again? You might almost think people like sex and alcohol from all this insanity. Next thing you know, they'll be opening up establishments where men and women go to get drunk and pick each other for sloppy drunk scores. That'll be the day...
peterwwillis 13y ago
Could you edit your post to clarify what you mean? The comments show this as an example of when not to convey your point using sarcasm, as everybody stopped reading once they read one statement.
EricDeb 13y ago
I'll assume you're being sarcastic with the condoning of sexual assault, however one difference is that a person who drinks a lot after being offered said drinks is complicit in their own intoxication, whereas with a date rape drug they are unaware
keevie 13y ago
I can't edit my post it seems, but yes, I am most definitely being sarcastic here. I absolutely believe that it is wrong to rape someone, and that getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you is rape. In my experience, society does not think that, which is why we use phrases like "date rape," and talk about "date rape drugs" without ever mentioning alcohol.
- Nursie 13y ago
  On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Or something. I'm glad you're not a terrible person.

by keevie 13y ago

justinsteele 13y ago

That's arguable. I think the line between "these friends know each other and have been flirtatious in the past, it's okay that they got drunk one night and hooked up" and "this random person put a date rape drug in that other person's drink so they could take advantage of their state" is extremely large.

Nursie 13y ago
>> "this random person put a date rape drug in that other person's drink so they could take advantage of their state" This is the straw man in the situation though - it's usually someone the victim knows. (edit: I'm not really sure straw man is the right term here...)
- g4m8i7 13y ago
  Closer to False Dichotomy.
ryusage 13y ago
I think keevie's comment was referring more to a situation in which two strangers meet, one buys many drinks for the other, and then, once very drunk, gets them into bed. If you ask 100 people if that's wrong to do, I'm pretty confident that you're going to get much more conflicting answers than if you ask them about either of your two examples. On the one hand, it's basically what a lot of people just take as the norm. They think that's what you're supposed to do at bars. On the other, it also just happens to be a way to make someone much less resistant to doing things they would never do otherwise.
- tsotha 13y ago
  The problem is "drunk" is a range (or "very drunk", as you would have it). Clearly it's wrong to have sex with someone who's passed out. And with someone who's almost passed out. And with someone who's almost almost passed out. After that it gets a bit more murky. How drunk is the other party? Is there an existing relationship?

jtreminio 13y ago

> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Christ.

arkades 13y ago

I don't think people are more tolerant of alcohol because it's more familiar. I think people are more tolerant of it because the imbiber is usually cognizant of what they're drinking, and does so willingly. Having something done to you without your knowledge or consent IS scarier than having someone persuade you to get carried away with something you're already choosing to do.

ryusage 13y ago
That's a fair point. I would think that it's a bit of both, rather than either/or. It's worth pointing out though that just because it's less scary doesn't mean it's less problematic.

DanBC 13y ago

> It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. They really do. Drunk consent isn't consent, and people leave themselves open to accusations of, and convictions for, rape if they have sex with drunk people.

asdasf 13y ago
>Drunk consent isn't consent Legally it is. >people leave themselves open to accusations of, and convictions for, rape if they have sex with drunk people. People are always open to accusations. I can't find evidence of a single conviction for someone consenting to sex while intoxicated. Only when causing the intoxication in the first place, without consent, does further consent get negated.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > >Drunk consent isn't consent > Legally it is. Not where I live.
  - asdasf 13y ago
    Where do you live? Can you cite a law or case that demonstrates you are correct in your belief?
    - anon1385 13y ago
      Incase he doesn't reply, I'm fairly sure DanBC lives in the UK. Here is a recent widely publicised case: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/21/ched-evans-loses-rape-appeal http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/21/ched-evans-loses-ra... In April, the 23-year-old striker was jailed for five years for raping a teenager who was too drunk to consent to sex with him
  - sk5t 13y ago
    Just out of curiosity, is drunk driving not driving in your jurisdiction?

king_jester 13y ago

> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ Uh what? Getting someone drunk so you can impair their ability to consent or so you can overpower them is most certainly wrong.

tassl 13y ago
I think he was being sarcastic on how buying somebody drinks is considered socially ok (even expected on some countries).

Nursie 13y ago

>> Getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you isn't really /wrong./ It is, sorry. There's nothing wrong with two people having a few drinks and going to bed together. But it's at the very least creepy to plan to knock someone's inhibitions down that way, or to take advantage of them. >> It's the original and most effective date rape drug, and no one even really objects to people using it for that purpose. You've now gone beyond creepy.

jmduke 13y ago
I'm giving the commenter the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he means that "there's nothing wrong with getting someone hammered to try and sleep with them", he means that "society seems to have a much smaller problem with getting someone hammered to try and sleep with them despite it being the same basic idea as GHB."
- keevie 13y ago
  Exactly. A much, much smaller problem.
- Nursie 13y ago
  Dunno. To me there's a vast differnce between getting pissed and falling into bed with someone as a mutual "WAHEY! let's go for it!" thing and "if I keep buying her drinks maybe she'll get drunk enough to take her top off". The latter seems little better than spiking them. --edit-- OK so I've read his other comments and it was clearly a comment on society and meant to be taken at anything but face value. I'll be the first to admit that in discussions like these I can easily suffer from a sense of humour failure, if not a complete lack of sarcasm detection.
nicolethenerd 13y ago
Pretty sure keevie was being sarcastic.
- Nursie 13y ago
  My meter is off this week, and the whole troll/poe thing is still settling down in my brain. If it was a comment on societal attitudes then cool, am on board.

rsofaer 13y ago

You are very wrong that no one objects to people using alcohol as a date rape drug, and I don't hesitate to condemn anyone who pressures someone else into drinking in order to control them. Another reason the attitude you display here is alarming is that it may be difficult to tell the difference between a drunk person and a drugged person. It's not like the victim falls unconscious and the attacker carries them away. Someone who has been slipped GHB might be perceived by the people around them as having gotten drunk deliberately, for example.

regal 13y ago

You mean no one really objects to people drinking enough to make bad decisions with one another, then hating themselves for it so much that they... proceed to go out again and get drunk again and make bad decisions with one another again, and do it over and over and over again? You might almost think people like sex and alcohol from all this insanity. Next thing you know, they'll be opening up establishments where men and women go to get drunk and pick each other for sloppy drunk scores. That'll be the day...

peterwwillis 13y ago

Could you edit your post to clarify what you mean? The comments show this as an example of when not to convey your point using sarcasm, as everybody stopped reading once they read one statement.

EricDeb 13y ago

I'll assume you're being sarcastic with the condoning of sexual assault, however one difference is that a person who drinks a lot after being offered said drinks is complicit in their own intoxication, whereas with a date rape drug they are unaware

keevie 13y ago

I can't edit my post it seems, but yes, I am most definitely being sarcastic here. I absolutely believe that it is wrong to rape someone, and that getting people drunk to get them to sleep with you is rape. In my experience, society does not think that, which is why we use phrases like "date rape," and talk about "date rape drugs" without ever mentioning alcohol.

Nursie 13y ago
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Or something. I'm glad you're not a terrible person.