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> Not everyone is ready to concede their freedom for relative security. Yes they are, every single one of us lives in a society with a police force, with rest

> Not everyone is ready to concede their freedom for relative security. Yes they are, every single one of us lives in a society with a police force, with restrictions on ownership of everything from firearms to particular types of plant. Don't give me this idealistic nonsense, the fact is that we are all willing to concede freedoms.

icebraining 13y ago
Does anyone have an option of living in a society without a police force? Not that I would, but it seems misleading to claim that we are necessarily willing and/or ready when there is no real choice.
- hahainternet 13y ago
  It's an interesting question really, and it's not as simple as a binary choice. Fundamentally to have a functional society you need to have regulations, an authoritative hierarchy of some form (even if it's direct democracy) and a way to physically coerce those who do not obey rules. The idea that this isn't a sacrifice of freedom would also be misleading, as it certainly is. When people say they won't sacrifice freedom I see it as just ignorant of the struggle and hardship required to establish the regulations that allow for an actual free society. I could go on for hours, but won't.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    There's a very large body of political philosophy that disagrees with your fundamental assertion, though. Not everyone agrees with the Hobbesian notion of the state of permanent war in the lack of a State, or that such top-down authority is inevitable, even if they are acquainted with the argument in its favor. In any case, that may make someone misguided, but not necessarily willing.
zimbatm 13y ago
Exactly. Anti-authoritarian people are like fairies. Even if they would exist they shouldn't because they're dangerously not conforming to our single-minded view of the world ;) That wasn't really my main point though. Obviously freedom and security are a tradeoff but they're intrinsically related. How much more freedom are you willing to concede to live in a safer world ? How much taste of the life are you willing to remove to live longer in a bubble of safety ? Not everyone has the the same level of acceptance and it's only natural that some try to fight back the current trend.

icebraining 13y ago

Does anyone have an option of living in a society without a police force? Not that I would, but it seems misleading to claim that we are necessarily willing and/or ready when there is no real choice.

hahainternet 13y ago
It's an interesting question really, and it's not as simple as a binary choice. Fundamentally to have a functional society you need to have regulations, an authoritative hierarchy of some form (even if it's direct democracy) and a way to physically coerce those who do not obey rules. The idea that this isn't a sacrifice of freedom would also be misleading, as it certainly is. When people say they won't sacrifice freedom I see it as just ignorant of the struggle and hardship required to establish the regulations that allow for an actual free society. I could go on for hours, but won't.
- icebraining 13y ago
  There's a very large body of political philosophy that disagrees with your fundamental assertion, though. Not everyone agrees with the Hobbesian notion of the state of permanent war in the lack of a State, or that such top-down authority is inevitable, even if they are acquainted with the argument in its favor. In any case, that may make someone misguided, but not necessarily willing.

zimbatm 13y ago

Exactly. Anti-authoritarian people are like fairies. Even if they would exist they shouldn't because they're dangerously not conforming to our single-minded view of the world ;) That wasn't really my main point though. Obviously freedom and security are a tradeoff but they're intrinsically related. How much more freedom are you willing to concede to live in a safer world ? How much taste of the life are you willing to remove to live longer in a bubble of safety ? Not everyone has the the same level of acceptance and it's only natural that some try to fight back the current trend.