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Personally if you are a jr programmer on one of my teams I would be unimpressed if you felt the need to aggressively pursue external meetings so you could just

Personally if you are a jr programmer on one of my teams I would be unimpressed if you felt the need to aggressively pursue external meetings so you could just sit and listen, or spend work time meeting with the CFO to discuss how much we pay the auditors. Get to work, it's what you're being paid for. Don't forget that.

michaelochurch 13y ago
Get to work, it's what you're being paid for. Don't forget that. You sound incredibly entitled. While I agree that it's strategically a bad idea for him to go outside of his job description, why is it not "work" for him to want to know how the company runs? He's not looking to upset apple carts; he just wants to know how the decisions are made. Anyway, I hate this attitude you're showing. I'm not downvoting you, because people need to see that your attitude exists (as it's fairly prevalent) so it shouldn't be buried, but I find it this "fuck you, I'm the boss" attitude revolting.
- bitwize 13y ago
  Objecting to his attitude is above your pay grade, son.
- centrinoblue 13y ago
  I was a jr programmer once as well and I was curious and engaged people outside my direct work assignments but was always focused on making sure the work I was expected to do got done. More than enough time is wasted in project specific meetings so actively looking to sit in on unrelated meetings screams 'wasted time'. I'm not 'entitled' I'm speaking as someone under pressure to deliver software projects and to explain why they may be late or off course. If I have a jr programmer who is constantly away trying to understand how to run a business so he/she can fly the coup to start their own company then I'm not going to be impressed with said programmer. I enjoy working with people who are creative, engaged, and curious -- but also focused. Call it what you will.
  - kazagistar 13y ago
    Somehow, I suspect that while you might be upset with him, and even let him go, that junior dev will be better off learning what he can and then jumping ship then staying and working diligently in subservience. This advice is not how to make your managers happy by advancing their careers, it is how to make yourself happy by advancing your career.
    - centrinoblue 13y ago
      Perhaps I should have said: focus on your work. My comments are not about advancing anyone's career. When you are a junior member of a software development team your primary objective should be to help the team deliver the project. There's a reason you have 'jr' in your job title. There are some interestingly ironic comments about how the team lead is labeled as 'entitled' and 'advancing my career' when the OP is essentially advocating those same concepts from a different perspective. I get the sense from the tone of comments that there are a lot more jr programmers on this thread than sr programmers.
      - dasmoth 13y ago
        I suspect some of the adverse reactions are because of the focus on the 'jr'. Shouldn't all members of a software development team have a primary (work) objective of delivering the project?
- CanSpice 13y ago
  It's also a bit of a drag on your fellow developers. If I'm a senior dev working on my tasklist, and we hire a junior dev who goes off to go see what marketing's doing instead of working on his tasklist, it would really start to get me pissed off. It doesn't matter that he might be a superstar and knocking off his tasks in 25% of the estimated time, what matters is that the department that we're both in has things that need doing, and by buggering off to talk with the CTO he's not helping get those things done.
lotsofcows 13y ago
Any employee who pulls his weight and also expands his knowledge is massively more useful than one with the wage slave mentality you appear to be condoning.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  I dislike the attitude that he's showing, but I'm glad that he's showing it because the way thinks is not atypical in corporate middle management. I would hazard the guess that, in 90 percent of companies, a person doing above-grade work that is more interesting than his assigned job-- even if that person is fully "pulling his weight"-- develops a negative reputation that will eventually harm his career. Sadly, perception matters more than what is actually happening. Also, keep in mind that the real job of management and executives in most companies is reputation management. Their actual purpose is to sustain the reputation of the company so it can trade its wares (produced by the workers) at an advantageous rate. The test of the white-collar peon is how well he supports his manager's reputation. That's why middle managers are allowed to demand total loyalty of their reports. Above-board work that the manager didn't direct ends up minimizing the boss, so any benefit to the company doesn't really matter. I hate that it's that way; companies would be a lot better if people were trusted to work directly for the firm, Valve style, but that's not how most firms operate.
- xsmasher 13y ago
  I see a lot of people with the "get your head down and code" attitude, and it MAY be appropriate at the junior level. At the senior level - as you note - someone has to make sure that the RIGHT work is being done, not simply that a LARGE AMOUNT of work is being done. That requires you to get your head up and communicate with other departments.
walshemj 13y ago
and "Ask for sensitive information, even if it's personal at times" FFS thats just asking for trouble. Hint if you accessed sensitive information with out authorization in many places you will be in trouble. At my last place my boss was a director and there where things about major changes in the company that he knew about and impacted my job but he was contractual and legally bound not to say anything till its announced.
- GeneralMayhem 13y ago
  Then you can still ask, and if he really can't or won't tell you he'll say no. Curiosity in what's going on over your head, particularly when it comes to structural decisions that will affect you, your employment status, or your day-to-day work, is healthy.
dev1n 13y ago
With respect to your comment; I ran cross-country in high school. We trained in certain zones called VDOT's, and in the VDOTS were times on how fast you should be running for 800m, 1600m etc. The only way we got better was pushing ourselves outside of our VDOT suggested times, and entering the higher VDOT times. If we simply "got to work" we would never get better, only becoming good at what we were told is our limit (represented by the times in our VDOT).
- CanSpice 13y ago
  "Getting to work" means "working on what you're working on while improving upon what you're working on". I don't see how that differs from pushing yourself outside of your VDOT times. What's being advocated in the article is going to watch the high jump practice. While you might gain some insight into, say, different training techniques, you won't learn very much that is going to help you maintain your times, let alone improve upon them.
  - dev1n 13y ago
    I think that looking at different parts of a system does in fact help you improve on whatever it is you are doing. Developing an understanding of any system in depth is imperative to getting better. Why would one want to study Calculus if all that person will be doing is programming? Thinking outside the box helps stretch the creative process to cover more than convention allows.
GeneralMayhem 13y ago
>spend work time meeting with the CFO to discuss how much we pay the auditors I think you may have misread that section - I don't think it was about calling the auditors out on being lazy; I read it as "they're fair game to ask questions," i.e. if they're in the break room at the same time as you, ask the auditors about their career path/what they do/how to be successful like them.

michaelochurch 13y ago

Get to work, it's what you're being paid for. Don't forget that. You sound incredibly entitled. While I agree that it's strategically a bad idea for him to go outside of his job description, why is it not "work" for him to want to know how the company runs? He's not looking to upset apple carts; he just wants to know how the decisions are made. Anyway, I hate this attitude you're showing. I'm not downvoting you, because people need to see that your attitude exists (as it's fairly prevalent) so it shouldn't be buried, but I find it this "fuck you, I'm the boss" attitude revolting.

bitwize 13y ago
Objecting to his attitude is above your pay grade, son.
centrinoblue 13y ago
I was a jr programmer once as well and I was curious and engaged people outside my direct work assignments but was always focused on making sure the work I was expected to do got done. More than enough time is wasted in project specific meetings so actively looking to sit in on unrelated meetings screams 'wasted time'. I'm not 'entitled' I'm speaking as someone under pressure to deliver software projects and to explain why they may be late or off course. If I have a jr programmer who is constantly away trying to understand how to run a business so he/she can fly the coup to start their own company then I'm not going to be impressed with said programmer. I enjoy working with people who are creative, engaged, and curious -- but also focused. Call it what you will.
- kazagistar 13y ago
  Somehow, I suspect that while you might be upset with him, and even let him go, that junior dev will be better off learning what he can and then jumping ship then staying and working diligently in subservience. This advice is not how to make your managers happy by advancing their careers, it is how to make yourself happy by advancing your career.
  - centrinoblue 13y ago
    Perhaps I should have said: focus on your work. My comments are not about advancing anyone's career. When you are a junior member of a software development team your primary objective should be to help the team deliver the project. There's a reason you have 'jr' in your job title. There are some interestingly ironic comments about how the team lead is labeled as 'entitled' and 'advancing my career' when the OP is essentially advocating those same concepts from a different perspective. I get the sense from the tone of comments that there are a lot more jr programmers on this thread than sr programmers.
    - dasmoth 13y ago
      I suspect some of the adverse reactions are because of the focus on the 'jr'. Shouldn't all members of a software development team have a primary (work) objective of delivering the project?
CanSpice 13y ago
It's also a bit of a drag on your fellow developers. If I'm a senior dev working on my tasklist, and we hire a junior dev who goes off to go see what marketing's doing instead of working on his tasklist, it would really start to get me pissed off. It doesn't matter that he might be a superstar and knocking off his tasks in 25% of the estimated time, what matters is that the department that we're both in has things that need doing, and by buggering off to talk with the CTO he's not helping get those things done.

lotsofcows 13y ago

Any employee who pulls his weight and also expands his knowledge is massively more useful than one with the wage slave mentality you appear to be condoning.

michaelochurch 13y ago
I dislike the attitude that he's showing, but I'm glad that he's showing it because the way thinks is not atypical in corporate middle management. I would hazard the guess that, in 90 percent of companies, a person doing above-grade work that is more interesting than his assigned job-- even if that person is fully "pulling his weight"-- develops a negative reputation that will eventually harm his career. Sadly, perception matters more than what is actually happening. Also, keep in mind that the real job of management and executives in most companies is reputation management. Their actual purpose is to sustain the reputation of the company so it can trade its wares (produced by the workers) at an advantageous rate. The test of the white-collar peon is how well he supports his manager's reputation. That's why middle managers are allowed to demand total loyalty of their reports. Above-board work that the manager didn't direct ends up minimizing the boss, so any benefit to the company doesn't really matter. I hate that it's that way; companies would be a lot better if people were trusted to work directly for the firm, Valve style, but that's not how most firms operate.
xsmasher 13y ago
I see a lot of people with the "get your head down and code" attitude, and it MAY be appropriate at the junior level. At the senior level - as you note - someone has to make sure that the RIGHT work is being done, not simply that a LARGE AMOUNT of work is being done. That requires you to get your head up and communicate with other departments.

walshemj 13y ago

and "Ask for sensitive information, even if it's personal at times" FFS thats just asking for trouble. Hint if you accessed sensitive information with out authorization in many places you will be in trouble. At my last place my boss was a director and there where things about major changes in the company that he knew about and impacted my job but he was contractual and legally bound not to say anything till its announced.

GeneralMayhem 13y ago
Then you can still ask, and if he really can't or won't tell you he'll say no. Curiosity in what's going on over your head, particularly when it comes to structural decisions that will affect you, your employment status, or your day-to-day work, is healthy.

dev1n 13y ago

With respect to your comment; I ran cross-country in high school. We trained in certain zones called VDOT's, and in the VDOTS were times on how fast you should be running for 800m, 1600m etc. The only way we got better was pushing ourselves outside of our VDOT suggested times, and entering the higher VDOT times. If we simply "got to work" we would never get better, only becoming good at what we were told is our limit (represented by the times in our VDOT).

CanSpice 13y ago
"Getting to work" means "working on what you're working on while improving upon what you're working on". I don't see how that differs from pushing yourself outside of your VDOT times. What's being advocated in the article is going to watch the high jump practice. While you might gain some insight into, say, different training techniques, you won't learn very much that is going to help you maintain your times, let alone improve upon them.
- dev1n 13y ago
  I think that looking at different parts of a system does in fact help you improve on whatever it is you are doing. Developing an understanding of any system in depth is imperative to getting better. Why would one want to study Calculus if all that person will be doing is programming? Thinking outside the box helps stretch the creative process to cover more than convention allows.

GeneralMayhem 13y ago

>spend work time meeting with the CFO to discuss how much we pay the auditors I think you may have misread that section - I don't think it was about calling the auditors out on being lazy; I read it as "they're fair game to ask questions," i.e. if they're in the break room at the same time as you, ask the auditors about their career path/what they do/how to be successful like them.