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Exactly. Technology and especially things like cryptography and hacking, can potentially get you thrown in jail again, after a decade of peace. Does anyone ev

by kjackson2012 13y ago

Exactly. Technology and especially things like cryptography and hacking, can potentially get you thrown in jail again, after a decade of peace. Does anyone even remember the immense legal problems that Phil Zimmermann had with releasing PGP? What about Kevin Mitnick? They put Mitnick in solitary confinement for years because the US government convinced a judge that "he had the ability to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone" (as per Wikipedia). Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. Are we bound to repeat the same mistakes again, because a generation of "hackers" don't want to educate themselves on the importance of politics and concepts like "freedom"? Or is all you want to do is sit back, and fantasize that you will create the next Facebook, and you won't have to care about things like freedom, the Constitution, etc?

twoodfin 13y ago
Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. It's just this kind of hyperbolic nonsense that is polluting the discussion here. A modern day Mitnick could not be "thrown into Guantanamo Bay" for "potentially being a terrorist". That would require the system to have broken down far, far more than it actually has, and indeed if it were that screwed up, anything we "hackers" on hn could do about it would likely be too little, too late. One important skill engineers require is the ability to see the world as it is, and craft an appropriate solution. Maybe there's a certain thrill to imagining that "Big Brother" is here and we can band together to rebel against him, but that's a romantic fantasy, not reality.
- glesica 13y ago
  I will grant that the specific mention of Guantanamo is a little off. AFAIK there aren't any US citizens there. On the other hand, Bradley Manning has spent, what, two years being tortured (solitary confinement, forced nudity, sleep deprivation). Is it so unreasonable to think that Mitnick might have been subject to similar treatment today? Additionally, the US has actually extra-judicially executed at least one US citizen abroad. It also isn't entirely crazy (IMHO) to think that an appropriately "scary" "hacker" might be declared a terrorist and violently suppressed.
- kjackson2012 13y ago
  Hyperbolic nonsense? I suggest that you educate yourself on what is going on right now. There is no hyperbole, there is no pollution, there is only uneducated folks like yourself that don't seem to understand that things have broken down. Obama signed off on the execution of known American citizens via drone attacks. These are American citizens that are protected by the US constitution against things like this. We're not talking about Pakistani citizens, or Afghanis. They were American citizens. Sure, they may have been terrorists, but they deserved a trial. Just like the Oklahoma Bomber, and the Unabomber. If you think it's okay for the US government to target its own citizens for drone execution without a trial, then we really don't have anything to discuss here. http://rt.com/usa/us-government-drone-killing-660/ http://rt.com/usa/us-government-drone-killing-660/ Kevin Mitnick was thrown into prison, and suffered years in solitary confinement because of lies told by the US government. The 8th amendment to the Constitution is supposed to protect American citizens from this, but because of lies and delusion, they subverted the Constitution because they "feared" that Mitnick would become a nuclear terrorist and destroy the US. By saying that the US needed to be protected from Mitnick because he could start a nuclear war with whistles in a phone, they essentially charged him with being a nuclear terrorist, before it became chic. Yes he committed crimes, but they were social engineering crimes and electronic hacking. Nowhere did he even have a hint of wanting to destroy the US, and yet somehow his charged were trumped up to nuclear terrorism. This was 1995. You don't think today he would be thrown in Guantanamo or some other military prison indefinitely at this point? I have NO confidence that the current US government would give him due process in this day and age. If you missed this news article, 3 religious nuclear protesters broke into a poorly guarded nuclear facility and set up a protest. Over the course of a few months, their charged escalated from trespassing to charges of sabotage and "intending to injure, interfere with, or obstruct the national defense of the United States and willful damage of national security premises in violation of 18 US Code 2155, punishable with up to 20 years in prison." https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/05/15-7 https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/05/15-7 They are now jailed because "the court ruled that both the sabotage and the damage to property convictions were defined by Congress as federal crimes of terrorism". And, of course that poor kid who was thrown in jail for making a terrorist threat for uttering a stupid "joke" online about killing kids. Now, explain to me again how what I'm saying about Guantanamo is "hyperbolic nonsense"? Do you really believe that in this environment we're living, that Mitnick wouldn't be charged with terrorism? More importantly, is this really the US that you want to live in?
- woah 13y ago
  All you can say is that he would not be thrown into Guantanamo bay. Under current law, he most definitely could. I suggest you read up about the NDAA.

twoodfin 13y ago

Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. It's just this kind of hyperbolic nonsense that is polluting the discussion here. A modern day Mitnick could not be "thrown into Guantanamo Bay" for "potentially being a terrorist". That would require the system to have broken down far, far more than it actually has, and indeed if it were that screwed up, anything we "hackers" on hn could do about it would likely be too little, too late. One important skill engineers require is the ability to see the world as it is, and craft an appropriate solution. Maybe there's a certain thrill to imagining that "Big Brother" is here and we can band together to rebel against him, but that's a romantic fantasy, not reality.

glesica 13y ago
I will grant that the specific mention of Guantanamo is a little off. AFAIK there aren't any US citizens there. On the other hand, Bradley Manning has spent, what, two years being tortured (solitary confinement, forced nudity, sleep deprivation). Is it so unreasonable to think that Mitnick might have been subject to similar treatment today? Additionally, the US has actually extra-judicially executed at least one US citizen abroad. It also isn't entirely crazy (IMHO) to think that an appropriately "scary" "hacker" might be declared a terrorist and violently suppressed.
kjackson2012 13y ago
Hyperbolic nonsense? I suggest that you educate yourself on what is going on right now. There is no hyperbole, there is no pollution, there is only uneducated folks like yourself that don't seem to understand that things have broken down. Obama signed off on the execution of known American citizens via drone attacks. These are American citizens that are protected by the US constitution against things like this. We're not talking about Pakistani citizens, or Afghanis. They were American citizens. Sure, they may have been terrorists, but they deserved a trial. Just like the Oklahoma Bomber, and the Unabomber. If you think it's okay for the US government to target its own citizens for drone execution without a trial, then we really don't have anything to discuss here. http://rt.com/usa/us-government-drone-killing-660/ http://rt.com/usa/us-government-drone-killing-660/ Kevin Mitnick was thrown into prison, and suffered years in solitary confinement because of lies told by the US government. The 8th amendment to the Constitution is supposed to protect American citizens from this, but because of lies and delusion, they subverted the Constitution because they "feared" that Mitnick would become a nuclear terrorist and destroy the US. By saying that the US needed to be protected from Mitnick because he could start a nuclear war with whistles in a phone, they essentially charged him with being a nuclear terrorist, before it became chic. Yes he committed crimes, but they were social engineering crimes and electronic hacking. Nowhere did he even have a hint of wanting to destroy the US, and yet somehow his charged were trumped up to nuclear terrorism. This was 1995. You don't think today he would be thrown in Guantanamo or some other military prison indefinitely at this point? I have NO confidence that the current US government would give him due process in this day and age. If you missed this news article, 3 religious nuclear protesters broke into a poorly guarded nuclear facility and set up a protest. Over the course of a few months, their charged escalated from trespassing to charges of sabotage and "intending to injure, interfere with, or obstruct the national defense of the United States and willful damage of national security premises in violation of 18 US Code 2155, punishable with up to 20 years in prison." https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/05/15-7 https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/05/15-7 They are now jailed because "the court ruled that both the sabotage and the damage to property convictions were defined by Congress as federal crimes of terrorism". And, of course that poor kid who was thrown in jail for making a terrorist threat for uttering a stupid "joke" online about killing kids. Now, explain to me again how what I'm saying about Guantanamo is "hyperbolic nonsense"? Do you really believe that in this environment we're living, that Mitnick wouldn't be charged with terrorism? More importantly, is this really the US that you want to live in?
woah 13y ago
All you can say is that he would not be thrown into Guantanamo bay. Under current law, he most definitely could. I suggest you read up about the NDAA.