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One possible reason for the British response in the Religious vs National Identity question is that British identity can be a very fractious thing. The UK is m
by iuguy 13y ago
One possible reason for the British response in the Religious vs National Identity question is that British identity can be a very fractious thing.
The UK is made up of constituent kingdoms, but not all of these are on the island of Great Britain. Thus you can be technically British (i.e. of the UK) without being British (i.e. of the island of Great Britain). This most notably manifests itself amongst the Northern Irish, some of whom see themselves as Irish (ethnicity, or wanting to be of a united Irish state) or British (of the United Kingdom, but of island of Ireland).
To confuse things further, there's a debate going on over whether or not Scotland should stay part of the United Kingdom or become a separate country. Scottish nationalism is a very strange creature. Thus some people may identify with being Scottish first, or solely as Scottish. This occurs to a lesser extent in Wales and in England (being Welsh and English, not Scottish, that would just be silly).
Additionally there are many people who are first or second generation British with foreign parents or grandparents, particularly from former colonial territories. I have friends who identify with being both British and Indian, despite being born and raised on the island of Great Britain.
It all makes for a big, typically British mess. Finally, my wife was born in Turkey, moved to England and became a British citizen, but she can never become English because there's no English citizenship status.
- arethuza 13y ago"Scottish nationalism is a very strange creature." Why? We already have seperate legal, educational and health systems and a government that deals with a lot of domestic policies. We have a clear national identity and seem to be immune to the swing towards the far right that seems to be happening in England. Personally, I would far rather be in a Scotland that is independent, free of Trident and part of the EU than left as an appendage to London in the Former UK. [Sadly, I suspect we won't get indepedence, but I rankle a bit at this being described as "strange"]
- gadders 13y agoYou'd rather be an appendage of the EU, than the UK? And don't forget you'd need to re-apply for membership.
- arethuza 13y agoI'd rather be in the EU in Scotland than out of it in the UK - and there are other reasons for my interest in Scottish Independence, getting rid of Trident being an important one. [The "re-apply to the EU" thing is a bit of a red herring - membership is usually held up by legal compliance and Scotland's laws obviously already comply with EU legislation.]
- iuguy 13y agoI'm not convinced that an independent Scotland would be able to get rid of Trident. Any independence will be negotiated and as the armed forces belong to the crown it'll be down to the armed forces and monarch to largely decide what happens with Trident. If Scotland were to become a republic, then I can see that changing but I suspect that separation wouldn't be an immediate and overnight thing and that armed forces would continue to operate jointly for some time following independence.
- gadders 13y agoThere was also the option floated of keeping the Sub bases in Scotland as sovereign British territory if Scotland goes independent.
- arethuza 13y agoThat particular daft idea was killed pretty quickly (by the sounds of it came from some official at the MOD) because that kind of arrogance is exactly what motivates a lot of people in Scotland to look seriously at independence.
- gadders 13y agoWhat about taking on RBS's debts? Are they OK with that? And presumably without a currency they'll join the Euro?
- 13y ago
- iuguy 13y agoBecause unlike other common forms of nationalism, it's based on a sense of self-determination rather than a sense of superiority (e.g. American, historic British, Italian and German nationalism etc.).
- arethuza 13y agoAh - I'd never really thought of it like that. So when you meant "strange" you meant "nice strange", not "scary strange". If that is the case the I am standing down from my state of ranklement ;-) [NB I believe the French (our occasional ancient allies) - had a saying along the lines of "As touchy as a Scotsman"!]
- corford 13y agoAs an Englishman I'm happy to support Scottish independence but only if its done in a binary, all or nothing way. You are either in or you are out and we have no place getting in the way of that decision but if you do choose to go it alone then, imho, that should mean Scotland no longer uses the pound, no longer has any involvement in Westminster, no longer enjoys the free movement (i.e. sans passport checks) of its people across the border and forgoes any expectation of automatic defence by the UK. Independent should mean independent.
- chestnut-tree 13y ago"One possible reason for the British response in the Religious vs National Identity question is that British identity can be a very fractious thing." I think it might also be because Britain is simply not a very religious country any more and is much more secular than the U.S. For example, the 2011 census for England and Wales showed a big jump in the number of people who said they had "no religion" compared with the 2001 census (a jump from 15% in 2001 to 25% in 2011).