4 ms·

"A man has a right to use a saw, an axe, a plane, separately; may he not combine their uses on the same piece of wood? He has a right to use his knife to cut hi

"A man has a right to use a saw, an axe, a plane, separately; may he not combine their uses on the same piece of wood? He has a right to use his knife to cut his meat, a fork to hold it; may a patentee take from him the right to combine their use on the same subject? Such a law, instead of enlarging our conveniences, as was intended, would most fearfully abridge them, and crowd us by monopolies out of the use of the things we have." - Letter to Oliver Evans, (16 January 1814); published in The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (1905) Vol. 13, p. 66.

kn0thing 13y ago
In researching my forthcoming book, Without Their Permission, I found a great letter from Jefferson that went so far as to consider putting limits in the Bill of Rights: "Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature and their own inventions in the arts for a term not exceeding__years but for no longer term and no other purpose." Letter to James Madison, August 28, 1789 http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2184/default.asp http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2184/default...
- gcb0 13y ago
  Those letters are quaint and all, but unless ratified in laws are off topic.
  - abrichr 13y ago
    I disagree. As per the HN Guidelines [1]: > On-Topic: ... anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. [1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - philsmith35 13y ago
      I think he meant off-topic in a legal discussion because they are merely a lawmakers opinions and not actually law.
  - sanderjd 13y ago
    It may be off topic in an argument against the propriety of a specific patent within the current system, but is absolutely on topic in an argument favoring reform due to that system having overstepped its initial charter. I think your parent was making the latter argument.
  - aptwebapps 13y ago
    Off topic in a real courtroom, maybe. In the court of public opinion, Jefferson holds some sway.
  - dools 13y ago
    I think perhaps you meant "moot" (I love that word).
- jivatmanx 13y ago
  Jefferson was the U.S.'s first patent examiner, this eventually became one of his most time consuming duties. It's claimed that this indicates he supported patents, which is false, as this letter, written well after his duties, shows[0]. He was simply trying to have them applied as granted as strictly as possible [0]http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.... Thomas Jefferson to Isaac McPherson 13 Aug. 1813 Writings 13:333--35 Jefferson was, of course, an inventor himself, though not as prolific of one as Benjamin Franklin, who also opposed patents.
  - throwawaykf02 13y ago
    Actually, he did become quite a convert on the topic of patents. See my comment above to see his change in perspective in a letter dated a scant year after the one you cited: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118931
- throwawaykf02 13y ago
  This, as with the patent comment, takes quotes out of context. The specific context relevant here is that while Jefferson was initially skeptical of patents, after only two months of being one of the first patent examiners, he became a firm believer. [1] "An act of Congress authorising the issuing patents for new discoveries has given a spring to invention beyond my conception. Being an instrument in granting the patents, I am acquainted with their discoveries. Many of them indeed are trifling, but there are some of great consequence which have been proved by practice, and others which if they stand the same proof will produce great effect." - Jefferson to Benjamin Vaughan, June 27 1790 [2] [1] http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/patents http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/pate... [2] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-16-02-0342 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-16-02-03...
throwawaykf02 13y ago
To give fuller context: Oliver Evans, one of America's earliest prolific inventors, wrote to Jefferson [1] discussing the extent of his patent rights and his concern that they were being misrepresented anonymously [2]. This quote is from Jefferson's response [3] to that letter. (It's worth following the links in the letters above to see the story unfold.) Now, here's where it gets interesting: Evans asserted his patent against Jefferson, and Jefferson did grudgingly pay royalties [4]. It's interesting how the passage years and being at the receiving end of a patent changes one's perspective [5]. [1] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0057-0001 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [2] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0057-0001#TJ173210_6 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [3] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0072 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [4] "He enforced that patent against many mill operators, including Jefferson. From this experience, Jefferson understood the frustration of technology users confronted by activist patent holders. Ironically, it was his Board of Arts that granted Evans the patent." - http://www.hssonline.org/publications/Newsletter2009/July_Matsuura.html http://www.hssonline.org/publications/Newsletter2009/July_Ma... [5] "Jefferson's objections to the Evans patent are difficult to reconcile with the fact that his Board of Arts granted the patent in the first place. As much as he might argue, in 1813, that the Evans work was not novel, he and his colleagues had reviewed the Evans work in 1790 and considered it worthy of a patent at that time." - Jefferson Vs. the Patent Trolls: A Populist Vision of Intellectual Property Rights, Jeffrey H. Matsuura (http://books.google.com/books?id=10Tol-c7xH4C&lpg=PT74&ots=bQoi3ykBE8&dq=jefferson%20oliver%20evans&pg=PT76#v=onepage&q=jefferson%20oliver%20evans&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=10Tol-c7xH4C&lpg=PT74&ots=b...)

kn0thing 13y ago

In researching my forthcoming book, Without Their Permission, I found a great letter from Jefferson that went so far as to consider putting limits in the Bill of Rights: "Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature and their own inventions in the arts for a term not exceeding__years but for no longer term and no other purpose." Letter to James Madison, August 28, 1789 http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2184/default.asp http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2184/default...

gcb0 13y ago
Those letters are quaint and all, but unless ratified in laws are off topic.
- abrichr 13y ago
  I disagree. As per the HN Guidelines [1]: > On-Topic: ... anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. [1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - philsmith35 13y ago
    I think he meant off-topic in a legal discussion because they are merely a lawmakers opinions and not actually law.
- sanderjd 13y ago
  It may be off topic in an argument against the propriety of a specific patent within the current system, but is absolutely on topic in an argument favoring reform due to that system having overstepped its initial charter. I think your parent was making the latter argument.
- aptwebapps 13y ago
  Off topic in a real courtroom, maybe. In the court of public opinion, Jefferson holds some sway.
- dools 13y ago
  I think perhaps you meant "moot" (I love that word).
jivatmanx 13y ago
Jefferson was the U.S.'s first patent examiner, this eventually became one of his most time consuming duties. It's claimed that this indicates he supported patents, which is false, as this letter, written well after his duties, shows[0]. He was simply trying to have them applied as granted as strictly as possible [0]http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.... Thomas Jefferson to Isaac McPherson 13 Aug. 1813 Writings 13:333--35 Jefferson was, of course, an inventor himself, though not as prolific of one as Benjamin Franklin, who also opposed patents.
- throwawaykf02 13y ago
  Actually, he did become quite a convert on the topic of patents. See my comment above to see his change in perspective in a letter dated a scant year after the one you cited: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118931
throwawaykf02 13y ago
This, as with the patent comment, takes quotes out of context. The specific context relevant here is that while Jefferson was initially skeptical of patents, after only two months of being one of the first patent examiners, he became a firm believer. [1] "An act of Congress authorising the issuing patents for new discoveries has given a spring to invention beyond my conception. Being an instrument in granting the patents, I am acquainted with their discoveries. Many of them indeed are trifling, but there are some of great consequence which have been proved by practice, and others which if they stand the same proof will produce great effect." - Jefferson to Benjamin Vaughan, June 27 1790 [2] [1] http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/patents http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/pate... [2] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-16-02-0342 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-16-02-03...

throwawaykf02 13y ago

To give fuller context: Oliver Evans, one of America's earliest prolific inventors, wrote to Jefferson [1] discussing the extent of his patent rights and his concern that they were being misrepresented anonymously [2]. This quote is from Jefferson's response [3] to that letter. (It's worth following the links in the letters above to see the story unfold.) Now, here's where it gets interesting: Evans asserted his patent against Jefferson, and Jefferson did grudgingly pay royalties [4]. It's interesting how the passage years and being at the receiving end of a patent changes one's perspective [5]. [1] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0057-0001 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [2] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0057-0001#TJ173210_6 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [3] http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0072 http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-00... [4] "He enforced that patent against many mill operators, including Jefferson. From this experience, Jefferson understood the frustration of technology users confronted by activist patent holders. Ironically, it was his Board of Arts that granted Evans the patent." - http://www.hssonline.org/publications/Newsletter2009/July_Matsuura.html http://www.hssonline.org/publications/Newsletter2009/July_Ma... [5] "Jefferson's objections to the Evans patent are difficult to reconcile with the fact that his Board of Arts granted the patent in the first place. As much as he might argue, in 1813, that the Evans work was not novel, he and his colleagues had reviewed the Evans work in 1790 and considered it worthy of a patent at that time." - Jefferson Vs. the Patent Trolls: A Populist Vision of Intellectual Property Rights, Jeffrey H. Matsuura (http://books.google.com/books?id=10Tol-c7xH4C&lpg=PT74&ots=bQoi3ykBE8&dq=jefferson%20oliver%20evans&pg=PT76#v=onepage&q=jefferson%20oliver%20evans&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=10Tol-c7xH4C&lpg=PT74&ots=b...)