4 ms·

On the contrary, it is incredibly good advice, just incredibly hard to follow. People do care about what others think of them, but you are always, absolutely al

by SeanDav 13y ago

On the contrary, it is incredibly good advice, just incredibly hard to follow. People do care about what others think of them, but you are always, absolutely always, going to come across people that disagree/hate what you do and how you do it. Sometimes these people will be those you would like to impress, or whose opinion you respect, in which case you need to re-assess, either what you are doing or your estimation of that person. If not that sort of person, grow a thick skin and move on. EDIT: This comment has nothing to do with Phil Fish. As someone that was bullied at school, my way of dealing with it was to follow the advice of nikster exactly. I am simply agreeing with the comment by nikster, as it worked for me. Bullying is despicable, but if it happens, one has to find ways of dealing with it. This is one way that worked for me.

vanderZwan 13y ago
Ok, I'm pretty infuriated because I have seen this bullshit a thousand times, so I'm going to be blunt: you are wrong. This "advice" completely ignores the reality of the situation that someone who is being bullied finds him or herself in. Fish asked for people to stop saying shit about him all the time, because it had turned into a thing of its own rather than a response to something he says; a sport of "who can call him a shithead in the most colourful way." That is bullying, plain and simple - when it becomes disconnected from whatever provoked it in the first place and turns into a "fun" pastime for everyone except the person being bullied. I want you to take a moment and think about what it actually meant when Fish did that: he essentially admits that he feels miserabe, that there's nothing he can do about it and he's at the mercy of those who treat him like shit. He's showing his place as an "omega" and looking for support form others, because that's what he needs the most at that moment. So what was the response? Well, turns out that we humans when faced with such a situation, in our infinite nobility, tend to decide to bully even more to show our domination. So what followed was the typical "well, if everyone is treating you like shit, you must have done something to deserve it" justification to kick Fish down even further. So instead of toning it down people start muckraking and looking for excuses to justify further bullying. So a guy reaches out for support from others and gets kicked down even further. Aren't we nice people? That's how this shit works, and it's the same mechanism as saying a woman is "asking for it" when being sexually assaulted or "must have done something to provoke him" when being abused by her spouse. It's fucking bullshit, and that situation is not comparable to coming across a few assholes that you have to mentally fortify yourself against like you describe. Fuck this "advice". That's just bystanders like you looking for an excuse to not intervene and shush their conscience.
- SeanDav 13y ago
  Ok so what is your advice? You spend a great deal of time saying how lousy his advice is, but don't come up with much in the way of alternatives... If I was uncharitable I could easily construe your behaviour as being bullying. You attack, insult and tear down, offer no viable alternatives. At the end of the day your post is entirely negative. Funnily enough, not a million miles away from the behaviour that is upsetting you in the first place.
  - vanderZwan 13y ago
    Don't be dense. There's a guy being bullied, and you're asking what should be done? How about stop bullying him, and telling everyone else to do so too? Because that's what's really going on in situations like this when nobody intervenes: people being afraid to stand up to the bully/the crowd, so they kick down the bullied instead.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      In the absence of being to convince half a million people to stop doing something that they seem to enjoy doing, what's Plan B?
      - hysan 13y ago
        Just like friends in school, if one standing up doesn't work, all of them standing up will. In this case, simply getting people you know to stop bullying or to voice their opinion against bullying can have a far greater effect than you think.
        bmelton 13y ago
        I'm not sure the same anti-bullying tactics that work in isolated ecosystems actually work at internet scale (or really, if they ever worked completely even in isolation). In short though, really, I advocate the "thicker skin" advice. Even if the entire internet at large were able to quell the vast majority of criticisms towards Fish, that doesn't mean that they won't ever reoccur. Also, despite what seems to be the opinion here, yes, it is a viable solution.
hysan 13y ago
I disagree. It's good advice for people who deal with the occasional inflammatory comment. Or people who are having their first exposure to a large audience where negative comments are inevitable. For people who have actually been through long term bullying (I too have been through this), this advice is not helpful for the exact reasons vanderZwan stated. You can try to grow thick skin at first, but over time, even that thicker skin will be eroded and you will need a reprieve before you can recover.
skore 13y ago
> If not that sort of person, grow a thick skin and move on. I think what you're not getting here is that it is possible that somebody simply can't "grow a thick skin". For those people, the only option isn't to grow a little tougher on the outside, but to become a little deader on the inside. And that is very, very sad. So they do anything to avoid either. Some people can't help but care. The noble thing would be to respect that, be there for them and help them. One possible outcome being that they might end up feeling safe enough to accept a little thicker skin. Usually, though, it's really about moving on, letting time pass and finding a new comfort zone once the "source of terrible" has dried up.
nikster 13y ago
Thanks for sharing your own experience. It makes me incredibly happy to see that; Hurrah! As Byron Katie says: "I find that every time I fight reality, reality wins."Once you accept what is, new ways to move forward emerge almost instantly. As long as you're in the "I wish that never happened" or in the "Why has this happened to me" state, you're not going to do anything useful.

by SeanDav 13y ago

vanderZwan 13y ago

Ok, I'm pretty infuriated because I have seen this bullshit a thousand times, so I'm going to be blunt: you are wrong. This "advice" completely ignores the reality of the situation that someone who is being bullied finds him or herself in. Fish asked for people to stop saying shit about him all the time, because it had turned into a thing of its own rather than a response to something he says; a sport of "who can call him a shithead in the most colourful way." That is bullying, plain and simple - when it becomes disconnected from whatever provoked it in the first place and turns into a "fun" pastime for everyone except the person being bullied. I want you to take a moment and think about what it actually meant when Fish did that: he essentially admits that he feels miserabe, that there's nothing he can do about it and he's at the mercy of those who treat him like shit. He's showing his place as an "omega" and looking for support form others, because that's what he needs the most at that moment. So what was the response? Well, turns out that we humans when faced with such a situation, in our infinite nobility, tend to decide to bully even more to show our domination. So what followed was the typical "well, if everyone is treating you like shit, you must have done something to deserve it" justification to kick Fish down even further. So instead of toning it down people start muckraking and looking for excuses to justify further bullying. So a guy reaches out for support from others and gets kicked down even further. Aren't we nice people? That's how this shit works, and it's the same mechanism as saying a woman is "asking for it" when being sexually assaulted or "must have done something to provoke him" when being abused by her spouse. It's fucking bullshit, and that situation is not comparable to coming across a few assholes that you have to mentally fortify yourself against like you describe. Fuck this "advice". That's just bystanders like you looking for an excuse to not intervene and shush their conscience.

SeanDav 13y ago
Ok so what is your advice? You spend a great deal of time saying how lousy his advice is, but don't come up with much in the way of alternatives... If I was uncharitable I could easily construe your behaviour as being bullying. You attack, insult and tear down, offer no viable alternatives. At the end of the day your post is entirely negative. Funnily enough, not a million miles away from the behaviour that is upsetting you in the first place.
- vanderZwan 13y ago
  Don't be dense. There's a guy being bullied, and you're asking what should be done? How about stop bullying him, and telling everyone else to do so too? Because that's what's really going on in situations like this when nobody intervenes: people being afraid to stand up to the bully/the crowd, so they kick down the bullied instead.
  - bmelton 13y ago
    In the absence of being to convince half a million people to stop doing something that they seem to enjoy doing, what's Plan B?
    - hysan 13y ago
      Just like friends in school, if one standing up doesn't work, all of them standing up will. In this case, simply getting people you know to stop bullying or to voice their opinion against bullying can have a far greater effect than you think.
      - bmelton 13y ago
        I'm not sure the same anti-bullying tactics that work in isolated ecosystems actually work at internet scale (or really, if they ever worked completely even in isolation). In short though, really, I advocate the "thicker skin" advice. Even if the entire internet at large were able to quell the vast majority of criticisms towards Fish, that doesn't mean that they won't ever reoccur. Also, despite what seems to be the opinion here, yes, it is a viable solution.

hysan 13y ago

I disagree. It's good advice for people who deal with the occasional inflammatory comment. Or people who are having their first exposure to a large audience where negative comments are inevitable. For people who have actually been through long term bullying (I too have been through this), this advice is not helpful for the exact reasons vanderZwan stated. You can try to grow thick skin at first, but over time, even that thicker skin will be eroded and you will need a reprieve before you can recover.

skore 13y ago

> If not that sort of person, grow a thick skin and move on. I think what you're not getting here is that it is possible that somebody simply can't "grow a thick skin". For those people, the only option isn't to grow a little tougher on the outside, but to become a little deader on the inside. And that is very, very sad. So they do anything to avoid either. Some people can't help but care. The noble thing would be to respect that, be there for them and help them. One possible outcome being that they might end up feeling safe enough to accept a little thicker skin. Usually, though, it's really about moving on, letting time pass and finding a new comfort zone once the "source of terrible" has dried up.

nikster 13y ago

Thanks for sharing your own experience. It makes me incredibly happy to see that; Hurrah! As Byron Katie says: "I find that every time I fight reality, reality wins."Once you accept what is, new ways to move forward emerge almost instantly. As long as you're in the "I wish that never happened" or in the "Why has this happened to me" state, you're not going to do anything useful.