5 ms·

The authors response in the comments to an overzealous attempt at political correctness was wonderful.

by jdn 13y ago

_delirium 13y ago
I looked for it after seeing this comment, and the response came across as kind of juvenile to me.
- jdn 13y ago
  It was a juvenile response to a juvenile comment
  - jamesaguilar 13y ago
    If it was a juvenility contest, the response won by lengths. The response also won in mean-spiritedness and unnecessary escalation.
lclarkmichalek 13y ago
> You may now go fuck yourself with a carrot scraper in whatever gender-free orifice you have available. How the fuck is that "wonderful"? The comment was something along the lines of "I wish people wouldn't use that kind of language", and the response was in the form "If I insult you enough, I don't have to acknowledge your argument". Looking at the other comments, the one nitpicking about the choice of Lady Gaga is equally as useless, but strangely that one didn't get an angry reply.
- jdn 13y ago
  That line was a bit juvenile, granted. The other comment wasn't really nitpicking. The commenter believed that Gaga has genuine musical ability, and the author wanted to make it clear that it was that classical training that made her the target of his blog. I don't want to misinterprete your meaning here, but are you trying to suggest the author would only react angrily to a female/feminist commentator?
  - lclarkmichalek 13y ago
    Not to a female commentator (I've no idea if the commentator was female in this case). More to a comment that deals with issues that are usually associated with feminism. And I wouldn't use the word only; In a much more hostile manner than the response to an average nitpick? Yes, that sums it up. The Gaga comment was nitpicking; off topic and trivial. The comment on casual sexism was also. Yet only one of them actually had their issue addressed.
    - jdn 13y ago
      The Gaga nitpicking wasn't completely off topic though. The selection of Gaga as the target was chosen with the express purpose of demonstrating a point; Gaga has classical training, yet still produces what most (at least the author) consider to be trash. This mirrors his comment on the poor design of modern languages versus the APL languages, and a commentator didn't get this link so he spelled it out for them. On the other hand, the casual sexism call was completely off topic.
    - scottlocklin 13y ago
      The one on lady Gaga had a point which relates to the content of my post. It was not only relevant, but interesting, as was his subsequent comment on Alcubierre drives, which is a subject for a forthcoming post already taking shape. The dork who was attempting to "correct" my language was not interesting, and totalitarian numskulls like that deserve nothing but whatever blistering scorn I can muster at that particular moment. The fact that this is even "a thing" with 30-odd comments about it is a sad commentary on the illness which afflicts modern civilization. If this isn't clear: I don't like people with such "refined" sensibilities, and they are invited to never, ever read my blog. If you're that sensitive, you belong by yourself in a yurt, where nobody's language or opinions will bother you. Personally, I've never met an actual programmer of any race, gender or creed who actually is that sensitive. People that sensitive are mentally ill, and don't have jobs. I've met plenty of power-mad Cotton Mather sickos who think they have the right to police the words and opinions of others though. The fact that people think witch hunts over a fscking word are OK; that is not OK.
- coldtea 13y ago
  I, for one, find it wonderful. As for people saying "I wish people wouldn't use that kind of language" -- those are the scum of the earth.
ddellacosta 13y ago
Not only was that comment (http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgotten-empires-apl-languages/#comment-6301 http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgot...) juvenile, it displays exactly the kind of privilege and ignorance which allows sexism to continue in the world of computer science and software engineering, and which dissuades women (and men who dislike this kind of behavior) from participating in the larger world of compsci/software engineering. In many cases, once you realize that these kinds of assholes rule the roost, it's easier just to go away and do your own thing, rather than disagreeing or speaking up. Especially when we get further support like your comment. "Oh, what a card he is!" It's okay to disagree--I didn't find the "men use Apply(), not for" thing to be particularly offensive myself, honestly--but there are many ways to disagree without resorting to the kind of hateful, caustic language the author used. This is not how well-adjusted adults disagree when having a discussion.
- jdn 13y ago
  I very much doubt the response reflects his attitude to women in computer science, and your comment regarding "this is not how well-adjusted adults disagree when having a discussion" is somewhat moot, as it wasn't a discussion. This is where I believe his anger came from, and where my support of his response also stems. The cause of women in computer science (which as a student in a very male dominated CS department, I wholeheartedly support) is not helped by people derailing everything in the manner in which the commentator did. Like many political and ethical discussions, there is a time and a place. If he had said something outrightly and obviously sexist, yes, call him on it. But as it is, I think he had every right to get annoyed and want to nip that derailing in the bud.
  - ddellacosta 13y ago
    as it wasn't a discussion It never got the chance to be a discussion, as the author responded to the opening volley with a shotgun blast. That's his prerogative, of course, as it is his blog, and he can take his ball and go home if he wants to. The cause of women in computer science (which as student of a CS department, I wholeheartedly support) is not helped by people derailing everything in the manner in which the commentator did. It's not a derail. It is a topic which came up because of language the author used, and which is an ongoing problem in the community of software developers. While you are free to believe in a platonic ideal of "pure ideas and discussion," it doesn't exist in this messy world of relationships and human language and politics. If you are still a student, I suggest you take a gender/sexual/racial politics course and try befriending some people with very much opposite viewpoints to your own. You may be surprised at your shift in thinking. But leaving that aside for the moment, let's say the author's main intent was to "nip that derailing in the bud." What do you think the most effective, least hurtful way to approach that would have been? 1) Ignore the comment, 2) assuming he is the administrator of the WordPress blog he writes on, delete/hide the comment, or 3) lash out in a juvenile, sexist, hateful fashion. I'm going to go with 1 or 2 being better than option 3 any day of the week.
SwellJoe 13y ago
So, here's the thing about conversations like this: We have a broken culture in technology. We can know we have a broken culture in tech by looking at the number of women within it. Given that reality, I'm coming down more on the side of stopping and listening when I hear a criticism of elements of our culture, rather than becoming reactionary. The criticism may not be right...but, it's worth listening and thinking about it, rather than just jumping down someone's throat with an angry and childish insult. Is it "political correctness" or actually language that turns people away? I don't have the answers...but, programming wasn't always a male-dominated field. The fact that it has become more and more so over time tells me something is wrong. Listening to ideas on what that wrong thing (or things) might be is probably a start on fixing it.
- jdn 13y ago
  I agree, but there is a time and a place for these discussions, and there are better ways of handling it than calling him out in his own comments. If you wanted to address perceived casual sexism through turns of phrases such as these, a better angle would be to collect examples from such blog posts and author a new post with the purpose of discussing this use of language. I don't think the gender equality in the industry is worsening, as you say. It certainly has worsened in recent years, but the strong movement in support of women in CS is gaining traction. My opinion on it may be jaded by the "white male privelege", but to me it seems the balance is starting to be reinstated slightly. Numbers of females joining the department each year has been increasing since I entered the degree, and recent statistics released actually showed there is now more women than men in the post-graduate CS degrees. Whether this is the case everywhere, I don't know (and doubt), but it's certainly a start.
  - SwellJoe 13y ago
    I think that would also be a useful approach. But, I've been involved in activist circles lately, and something I've learned in that is that calling behavior out when it happens can prevent resentments and problems from growing; and, having that culture of calling people on their shit can allow someone who may have walked away to feel empowered to speak up when they feel uncomfortable with something someone has said. Again, I'm not sure I understand the nuances of why someone felt uncomfortable with this particular piece of language; but if I assume good intentions, all it costs me is a moment of my time to think about it and try to understand. And maybe, by taking that time and showing a little respect for that view, I'll help someone feel welcome into this community I've been a part of for so long. I think it's probably worth the trouble...and, in the end, I'm pretty sure I'm a better person than I was a couple years ago before I got involved in this kind of activism. I don't know how to convince others to stop being reactionary, and instead simply think about what's being said. Anti-oppression training might be cool at tech conferences, but I suspect it'd be the least attended track.

The authors response in the comments to an overzealous attempt at political correctness was wonderful.

by jdn 13y ago

The authors response in the comments to an overzealous attempt at political correctness was wonderful.

_delirium 13y ago

I looked for it after seeing this comment, and the response came across as kind of juvenile to me.

jdn 13y ago
It was a juvenile response to a juvenile comment
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  If it was a juvenility contest, the response won by lengths. The response also won in mean-spiritedness and unnecessary escalation.

lclarkmichalek 13y ago

> You may now go fuck yourself with a carrot scraper in whatever gender-free orifice you have available. How the fuck is that "wonderful"? The comment was something along the lines of "I wish people wouldn't use that kind of language", and the response was in the form "If I insult you enough, I don't have to acknowledge your argument". Looking at the other comments, the one nitpicking about the choice of Lady Gaga is equally as useless, but strangely that one didn't get an angry reply.

jdn 13y ago
That line was a bit juvenile, granted. The other comment wasn't really nitpicking. The commenter believed that Gaga has genuine musical ability, and the author wanted to make it clear that it was that classical training that made her the target of his blog. I don't want to misinterprete your meaning here, but are you trying to suggest the author would only react angrily to a female/feminist commentator?
- lclarkmichalek 13y ago
  Not to a female commentator (I've no idea if the commentator was female in this case). More to a comment that deals with issues that are usually associated with feminism. And I wouldn't use the word only; In a much more hostile manner than the response to an average nitpick? Yes, that sums it up. The Gaga comment was nitpicking; off topic and trivial. The comment on casual sexism was also. Yet only one of them actually had their issue addressed.
  - jdn 13y ago
    The Gaga nitpicking wasn't completely off topic though. The selection of Gaga as the target was chosen with the express purpose of demonstrating a point; Gaga has classical training, yet still produces what most (at least the author) consider to be trash. This mirrors his comment on the poor design of modern languages versus the APL languages, and a commentator didn't get this link so he spelled it out for them. On the other hand, the casual sexism call was completely off topic.
  - scottlocklin 13y ago
    The one on lady Gaga had a point which relates to the content of my post. It was not only relevant, but interesting, as was his subsequent comment on Alcubierre drives, which is a subject for a forthcoming post already taking shape. The dork who was attempting to "correct" my language was not interesting, and totalitarian numskulls like that deserve nothing but whatever blistering scorn I can muster at that particular moment. The fact that this is even "a thing" with 30-odd comments about it is a sad commentary on the illness which afflicts modern civilization. If this isn't clear: I don't like people with such "refined" sensibilities, and they are invited to never, ever read my blog. If you're that sensitive, you belong by yourself in a yurt, where nobody's language or opinions will bother you. Personally, I've never met an actual programmer of any race, gender or creed who actually is that sensitive. People that sensitive are mentally ill, and don't have jobs. I've met plenty of power-mad Cotton Mather sickos who think they have the right to police the words and opinions of others though. The fact that people think witch hunts over a fscking word are OK; that is not OK.
coldtea 13y ago
I, for one, find it wonderful. As for people saying "I wish people wouldn't use that kind of language" -- those are the scum of the earth.

ddellacosta 13y ago

Not only was that comment (http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgotten-empires-apl-languages/#comment-6301 http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgot...) juvenile, it displays exactly the kind of privilege and ignorance which allows sexism to continue in the world of computer science and software engineering, and which dissuades women (and men who dislike this kind of behavior) from participating in the larger world of compsci/software engineering. In many cases, once you realize that these kinds of assholes rule the roost, it's easier just to go away and do your own thing, rather than disagreeing or speaking up. Especially when we get further support like your comment. "Oh, what a card he is!" It's okay to disagree--I didn't find the "men use Apply(), not for" thing to be particularly offensive myself, honestly--but there are many ways to disagree without resorting to the kind of hateful, caustic language the author used. This is not how well-adjusted adults disagree when having a discussion.

jdn 13y ago
I very much doubt the response reflects his attitude to women in computer science, and your comment regarding "this is not how well-adjusted adults disagree when having a discussion" is somewhat moot, as it wasn't a discussion. This is where I believe his anger came from, and where my support of his response also stems. The cause of women in computer science (which as a student in a very male dominated CS department, I wholeheartedly support) is not helped by people derailing everything in the manner in which the commentator did. Like many political and ethical discussions, there is a time and a place. If he had said something outrightly and obviously sexist, yes, call him on it. But as it is, I think he had every right to get annoyed and want to nip that derailing in the bud.
- ddellacosta 13y ago
  as it wasn't a discussion It never got the chance to be a discussion, as the author responded to the opening volley with a shotgun blast. That's his prerogative, of course, as it is his blog, and he can take his ball and go home if he wants to. The cause of women in computer science (which as student of a CS department, I wholeheartedly support) is not helped by people derailing everything in the manner in which the commentator did. It's not a derail. It is a topic which came up because of language the author used, and which is an ongoing problem in the community of software developers. While you are free to believe in a platonic ideal of "pure ideas and discussion," it doesn't exist in this messy world of relationships and human language and politics. If you are still a student, I suggest you take a gender/sexual/racial politics course and try befriending some people with very much opposite viewpoints to your own. You may be surprised at your shift in thinking. But leaving that aside for the moment, let's say the author's main intent was to "nip that derailing in the bud." What do you think the most effective, least hurtful way to approach that would have been? 1) Ignore the comment, 2) assuming he is the administrator of the WordPress blog he writes on, delete/hide the comment, or 3) lash out in a juvenile, sexist, hateful fashion. I'm going to go with 1 or 2 being better than option 3 any day of the week.

SwellJoe 13y ago

So, here's the thing about conversations like this: We have a broken culture in technology. We can know we have a broken culture in tech by looking at the number of women within it. Given that reality, I'm coming down more on the side of stopping and listening when I hear a criticism of elements of our culture, rather than becoming reactionary. The criticism may not be right...but, it's worth listening and thinking about it, rather than just jumping down someone's throat with an angry and childish insult. Is it "political correctness" or actually language that turns people away? I don't have the answers...but, programming wasn't always a male-dominated field. The fact that it has become more and more so over time tells me something is wrong. Listening to ideas on what that wrong thing (or things) might be is probably a start on fixing it.

jdn 13y ago
I agree, but there is a time and a place for these discussions, and there are better ways of handling it than calling him out in his own comments. If you wanted to address perceived casual sexism through turns of phrases such as these, a better angle would be to collect examples from such blog posts and author a new post with the purpose of discussing this use of language. I don't think the gender equality in the industry is worsening, as you say. It certainly has worsened in recent years, but the strong movement in support of women in CS is gaining traction. My opinion on it may be jaded by the "white male privelege", but to me it seems the balance is starting to be reinstated slightly. Numbers of females joining the department each year has been increasing since I entered the degree, and recent statistics released actually showed there is now more women than men in the post-graduate CS degrees. Whether this is the case everywhere, I don't know (and doubt), but it's certainly a start.
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  I think that would also be a useful approach. But, I've been involved in activist circles lately, and something I've learned in that is that calling behavior out when it happens can prevent resentments and problems from growing; and, having that culture of calling people on their shit can allow someone who may have walked away to feel empowered to speak up when they feel uncomfortable with something someone has said. Again, I'm not sure I understand the nuances of why someone felt uncomfortable with this particular piece of language; but if I assume good intentions, all it costs me is a moment of my time to think about it and try to understand. And maybe, by taking that time and showing a little respect for that view, I'll help someone feel welcome into this community I've been a part of for so long. I think it's probably worth the trouble...and, in the end, I'm pretty sure I'm a better person than I was a couple years ago before I got involved in this kind of activism. I don't know how to convince others to stop being reactionary, and instead simply think about what's being said. Anti-oppression training might be cool at tech conferences, but I suspect it'd be the least attended track.