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It seems HN is just as prone to pulling out the "Save The Kids" rhetoric when it suits them. I wonder why you aren't lauding the NSA surveillance program, as i

It seems HN is just as prone to pulling out the "Save The Kids" rhetoric when it suits them. I wonder why you aren't lauding the NSA surveillance program, as it gives you exactly the kind of ammunition to perform such thought police style discrimination. You will never agree with everyone. The solution is never to "exclude" or "ban" a school of thought, but counteract it with logic and reason. I see no harm in teaching both sides of human origin, it gives children the chance to decide for themselves, and also offers parents a wonderful opportunity to explain their own beliefs while rebutting any they don't agree with. If a teacher is not teaching evolution perhaps they aren't performing their job correctly, as opposed to being an insidious agent that must be removed due to their crimethink. I hope you can see the difference between job performance and belief systems.

Tichy 13y ago
Except this isn't about beliefs and opinions, but about science. You can question evolution with the scientific method if you want to. And "save the kids" seems a bit more applicable when applied to teachers who are paid to educate said kids.
- pdeuchler 13y ago
  "Save The Kids" is an appeal to emotion and is used to avoid addressing the logic and reason of the situation. If the children are in danger then you should have no problem listing the explicit points where such actions can cause irreparable harm. Otherwise you are simply trying to shortchange the debate and prevent discourse. The way I see it, a parent has been forced to parent. While I don't have children, I remember my parents being forced to intervene with teachers on a whole host of issues. Does this mean we should ban all teachers who disagree with any parent on any issue?
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Why does harm have to be irreparable to be avoided?
  - Tichy 13y ago
    So a teacher refusing to teach a child who doesn't believe in god, and/or a teacher teaching wrong things is not an issue in your opinion? As long as kids are locked away safely at school so that you can go about your day job things are fine? I don't understand how you can even argue that a teacher teaching wrong things could be acceptable?
DanBC 13y ago
> I see no harm in teaching both sides of human origin, There aren't two sides to human origin. We might not know much about it, but we do know evolution was involved somehow. When we discuss gravity in physics we don't have people clamouring for Yogic Flying to be taught - for both sides of gravity to be taught. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogic_flying#Yogic_Flying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogic_flying#Yogic_Flying)
harrytuttle 13y ago
I think you have misinterpreted this entirely. This is not the "save the kids rhetoric". This is simply stating that rationality should be preserved above personal beliefs in education. Your rhetoric is the typical miscalculated rebuttal against that attitude, which I do not possess. An opportunity to explain beliefs should be presented in the correct context i.e. within the bounds of religious education, but that is it. The issue we have here is that discussion is prevented if beliefs are questioned and people are punished and threatened for questioning them. That is not a belief system, nor is it something that should be promoted anywhere. It is simply forced indoctrination. By your logic, a geography teacher should teach that the earth is flat if they are a member of the flat earth society.
- pdeuchler 13y ago
  I don't think they should, but I think they should be allowed to. You're never going to stop crazy people from saying crazy things, and sometimes those people might just happen to be teachers. Besides, if crazy ideas were verboten in education we'd still be in the dark ages slinging arrows at each other. Tenure was actually explicitly created for respected teachers to be able to say crazy things without getting fired. What are you going to do when a tenured professor starts teaching your child something you disagree with? Are you going to go with the same heavy-handed approach? If you have a problem with the way your child is taught, bring it up with the teacher. Bring it up with the principal. Bring it up with the school board. Ask your child to be moved to a different class/section. Ask your child to be re-zoned. Or, all else failing, teach your own child. Maybe you should be more concerned about hiring standards for our teachers, or maybe consistent accreditation.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    Unfortunately a heavy handed approach is needed in the American public school system as teachers tend to waste a lot of the students' time with this sort of thing.
  - harrytuttle 13y ago
    Tenure doesn't excuse a person from being responsible or being held up to rational standards. Regarding standards, I now home school. This is wonderful for them. We have a network of professionals who they are taught by who do it out of interest and enthusiasm rather than a paycheque and job security with the state.

Tichy 13y ago

Except this isn't about beliefs and opinions, but about science. You can question evolution with the scientific method if you want to. And "save the kids" seems a bit more applicable when applied to teachers who are paid to educate said kids.

pdeuchler 13y ago
"Save The Kids" is an appeal to emotion and is used to avoid addressing the logic and reason of the situation. If the children are in danger then you should have no problem listing the explicit points where such actions can cause irreparable harm. Otherwise you are simply trying to shortchange the debate and prevent discourse. The way I see it, a parent has been forced to parent. While I don't have children, I remember my parents being forced to intervene with teachers on a whole host of issues. Does this mean we should ban all teachers who disagree with any parent on any issue?
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Why does harm have to be irreparable to be avoided?
- Tichy 13y ago
  So a teacher refusing to teach a child who doesn't believe in god, and/or a teacher teaching wrong things is not an issue in your opinion? As long as kids are locked away safely at school so that you can go about your day job things are fine? I don't understand how you can even argue that a teacher teaching wrong things could be acceptable?

DanBC 13y ago

> I see no harm in teaching both sides of human origin, There aren't two sides to human origin. We might not know much about it, but we do know evolution was involved somehow. When we discuss gravity in physics we don't have people clamouring for Yogic Flying to be taught - for both sides of gravity to be taught. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogic_flying#Yogic_Flying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogic_flying#Yogic_Flying)

harrytuttle 13y ago

I think you have misinterpreted this entirely. This is not the "save the kids rhetoric". This is simply stating that rationality should be preserved above personal beliefs in education. Your rhetoric is the typical miscalculated rebuttal against that attitude, which I do not possess. An opportunity to explain beliefs should be presented in the correct context i.e. within the bounds of religious education, but that is it. The issue we have here is that discussion is prevented if beliefs are questioned and people are punished and threatened for questioning them. That is not a belief system, nor is it something that should be promoted anywhere. It is simply forced indoctrination. By your logic, a geography teacher should teach that the earth is flat if they are a member of the flat earth society.

pdeuchler 13y ago
I don't think they should, but I think they should be allowed to. You're never going to stop crazy people from saying crazy things, and sometimes those people might just happen to be teachers. Besides, if crazy ideas were verboten in education we'd still be in the dark ages slinging arrows at each other. Tenure was actually explicitly created for respected teachers to be able to say crazy things without getting fired. What are you going to do when a tenured professor starts teaching your child something you disagree with? Are you going to go with the same heavy-handed approach? If you have a problem with the way your child is taught, bring it up with the teacher. Bring it up with the principal. Bring it up with the school board. Ask your child to be moved to a different class/section. Ask your child to be re-zoned. Or, all else failing, teach your own child. Maybe you should be more concerned about hiring standards for our teachers, or maybe consistent accreditation.
- rdouble 13y ago
  Unfortunately a heavy handed approach is needed in the American public school system as teachers tend to waste a lot of the students' time with this sort of thing.
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  Tenure doesn't excuse a person from being responsible or being held up to rational standards. Regarding standards, I now home school. This is wonderful for them. We have a network of professionals who they are taught by who do it out of interest and enthusiasm rather than a paycheque and job security with the state.