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#4 particularly stands out to me. I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" or "I work to live, I don't live to work". Co

#4 particularly stands out to me. I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" or "I work to live, I don't live to work". Considering how much of your life you dedicate towards working, why the hell aren't you making damn well sure it's doing something that gives you at least a sense of fulfillment, if not outright joy. Even passive income takes a good deal of effort and time to generate, albeit with the goal of minimizing the continual work. Also worth considering is that, in the slim number of ventures that will generate sustainable passive income, and even smaller number of them will be something that generates that income for the rest of your adult life. So the likelihood is, even if some app you wrote is passively making you 5 figures now, in a few years it's quite likely it won't be, particularly if you're neglecting it. So you will likely work again. And if your mindset is always that all work is bad, how are you ever going to find real meaning for how you've spent your life?

johnward 13y ago
Because not everyone can do what they want to do and support their lives? I've hated every job I've ever had. I still have to do it. edit: Why is it that you associate work with meaning in your life? What if someone find meaning in spending time with family, or whatever?
- zipppy 13y ago
  Those aren't mutually exclusive. You can find meaning in work & in spending time with family, etc. No one thinks it's bad to find meaning in relationships, or whatever.
  - johnward 13y ago
    That is true but the original post seemed to come to the conclusion that if you don't find a job you like you will never have meaning in your life.
- rhizome 13y ago
  Why is it that you associate work with meaning in your life? It's a common sensibility in the US and Western Europe because that's the Puritan Work Ethic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    I don't think that's the OP's mindset, on the contrary: look for a way to do something you really want instead of taking a mindless job.
    - rhizome 13y ago
      Well, I read it more as "if work is going to provide the meaning of your life, might as well have it be something you like to do." However, aside from the PWE, centuries of history tell us that liking your job is a luxury.
      - ricardobeat 13y ago
        Thousands of years of history tell us that toilets are a luxury too.
- jakerocheleau 13y ago
  I find meaning in work because it's what I leave behind once I'm dead. What I create, build, and put out into the world is part of my legacy. That's pretty important to me, perhaps not the same for others.
sanoli 13y ago
Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic. Samir: So what did you say? Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech. Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  Only if everyone ended up having a million dollars :) Jobs like that are supposed to be transitional, for students, etc, and they tend to be automated away. There isn't a real need for every human on earth to work, so it's feasible that everyone could focus at least part-time on what they really want. That's what tends to happen in advanced societies (more time spent on voluntary activities vs employment).
  - autotravis 13y ago
    Too bad the U.S. is stuck on 40hrs/week, every week of the year and funneling profits up to the top of the corporate food chain.
  - sanoli 13y ago
    >>Only if everyone ended up having a million dollars :) If that actually happened, it wouldn't be that great. A million dollars would just be worth a lot less real fast.
    - Donald 13y ago
      You're fixating on the dollar amount. Other formulations of the concept: * What if everyone had the purchasing power of one million 2013 US dollars? * What if there were such an excess of capital that every human being had the equivalent of a $25k - $35k minimum yearly income?
peferron 13y ago
Your last sentence suggests that 1) not finding real meaning to your life is a tragedy and 2) work is the only way to ever achieve that. I'm the one feeling sorry for you now. Or how about we stop feeling sorry for people who obviously place value in different things than us?
hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
> Considering how much of your life you dedicate towards working, why the hell aren't you making damn well sure it's doing something that gives you at least a sense of fulfillment, if not outright joy. Yeah. That's what "The Man" wants you to believe in. Back in the day, people used to be largely self-sufficient, filling their time with tasks for themselves (farming, weaving, building things), profiting by selling the surplus or charging to do something they were good at, and using the money to buy the things they needed. As you know, industrial revolution and large scale monoculture changed that. People would sweat all day, and because there was no time (or energy) left for anything else, they couldn't build anything for themselves, making employees heavily dependent on their jobs. That power player had two important effects: because the employer has the upper hand, it can command lower wages; in turn, those lower wages drive credit, creating an entire economy based on debt, which reinforces the importance of securing a job, again driving wages lower, in a feedback loop. So, why that "find a job that you love" is utter bullshit then? Because, ultimately, every job is bad. Every job is an asymmetric negotiation where the employee exchanges his lifetime to a monetary reward that is, guaranteed, smaller than the value he adds. Not to say that it isn't useful, but is certainly a sub-optimal way of using oneself's limited time on earth. "Passive income" strategy is the exact opposite of that, since the rewards are not bound to how much you can charge your hour, and more to how valuable your work is. Historically, that's how writers, artists, inventors and such have made money. Nowadays, though, the potential is enormous given the cost of automation and reproduction of creative work is ever decreasing. If you stop and think, this is mind-blowing. Of course, Forbes doesn't want you to realize that.
- readme 13y ago
  Of course the passive income bootstrappers are getting slammed all day today on HN, the VCs don't make any money off of them. So hey, maybe you had an awesome idea and some ambition to build a company, you can be your own boss! Nah, just sell your soul to some investors, then you can have a master all over again just like you wanted.
- carlob 13y ago
  While I agree with your general sentiment, I think you need to check your historical facts. Up to the industrial revolution the vast majority of the workforce was in agriculture, namely either in serfdom or working somebody else's land for a pittance. Not many were really self sufficient. Secondly, artists, scholars, inventors where either nobles, priests or depending on the local court for their income.
readme 13y ago
I feel sorry for people like you, who feel sorry for others because they don't want to live their lives exactly like you think they should.
sliverstorm 13y ago
I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" We don't want your pity. I enjoy my work, but it isn't my life, because you know what? Aside from sleep and work, I have another perfectly good 8 hours a day that I elect to spend on things completely different from my day jobs. So while work is half of my life, work is not my life, and I do not intend to let it become my life.
Dewie 13y ago
> I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" or "I work to live, I don't live to work". [...] And if your mindset is always that all work is bad, The first part is not inherently hateful towards working while the latter one is. > Considering how much of your life you dedicate towards working, why the hell aren't you making damn well sure it's doing something that gives you at least a sense of fulfillment, if not outright joy. Maybe they are. But people that say that they don't "live to work" seem to be more in opposition to the mindset of viewing everything through the lens of productivity and utility. They are against the idea that free time is chiefly about "recreation", ie about recharging your batteries/not burning out so that you can go back to being a fully productive worker bee at 9 am the next morning. In this "recreation" view, free time serves office time. In the view of "I don't live to work", work chiefly is about survival, and free time is about actually living. Does that mean they are necessarily against finding fulfilling work? No: work can be life-affirming (though I realize that some people might have such a chip on their shoulder towards work that they will never see it that way). But it certainly means that they refuse to delude themselves into thinking that working 60 hours a week at a job they at best feel lukewarm about is their grand purpose in life.
jcroll 13y ago
The world still needs janitors, ditch diggers...etc (at least for the moment), it's simply not realistic that everyone should like their jobs. Is it then logical that everyone should pursue fulfilling jobs? Perhaps, we do have a competitive economy after all but for those that "work-to-live", is that not a healthy outlook for our society's janitors and ditch diggers?
- avn2109 13y ago
  For a sufficiently large salary/light workweek I will dig ditches and like it.

johnward 13y ago

Because not everyone can do what they want to do and support their lives? I've hated every job I've ever had. I still have to do it. edit: Why is it that you associate work with meaning in your life? What if someone find meaning in spending time with family, or whatever?

zipppy 13y ago
Those aren't mutually exclusive. You can find meaning in work & in spending time with family, etc. No one thinks it's bad to find meaning in relationships, or whatever.
- johnward 13y ago
  That is true but the original post seemed to come to the conclusion that if you don't find a job you like you will never have meaning in your life.
rhizome 13y ago
Why is it that you associate work with meaning in your life? It's a common sensibility in the US and Western Europe because that's the Puritan Work Ethic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  I don't think that's the OP's mindset, on the contrary: look for a way to do something you really want instead of taking a mindless job.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    Well, I read it more as "if work is going to provide the meaning of your life, might as well have it be something you like to do." However, aside from the PWE, centuries of history tell us that liking your job is a luxury.
    - ricardobeat 13y ago
      Thousands of years of history tell us that toilets are a luxury too.
jakerocheleau 13y ago
I find meaning in work because it's what I leave behind once I'm dead. What I create, build, and put out into the world is part of my legacy. That's pretty important to me, perhaps not the same for others.

sanoli 13y ago

Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic. Samir: So what did you say? Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech. Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.

ricardobeat 13y ago
Only if everyone ended up having a million dollars :) Jobs like that are supposed to be transitional, for students, etc, and they tend to be automated away. There isn't a real need for every human on earth to work, so it's feasible that everyone could focus at least part-time on what they really want. That's what tends to happen in advanced societies (more time spent on voluntary activities vs employment).
- autotravis 13y ago
  Too bad the U.S. is stuck on 40hrs/week, every week of the year and funneling profits up to the top of the corporate food chain.
- sanoli 13y ago
  >>Only if everyone ended up having a million dollars :) If that actually happened, it wouldn't be that great. A million dollars would just be worth a lot less real fast.
  - Donald 13y ago
    You're fixating on the dollar amount. Other formulations of the concept: * What if everyone had the purchasing power of one million 2013 US dollars? * What if there were such an excess of capital that every human being had the equivalent of a $25k - $35k minimum yearly income?

peferron 13y ago

Your last sentence suggests that 1) not finding real meaning to your life is a tragedy and 2) work is the only way to ever achieve that. I'm the one feeling sorry for you now. Or how about we stop feeling sorry for people who obviously place value in different things than us?

hcarvalhoalves 13y ago

> Considering how much of your life you dedicate towards working, why the hell aren't you making damn well sure it's doing something that gives you at least a sense of fulfillment, if not outright joy. Yeah. That's what "The Man" wants you to believe in. Back in the day, people used to be largely self-sufficient, filling their time with tasks for themselves (farming, weaving, building things), profiting by selling the surplus or charging to do something they were good at, and using the money to buy the things they needed. As you know, industrial revolution and large scale monoculture changed that. People would sweat all day, and because there was no time (or energy) left for anything else, they couldn't build anything for themselves, making employees heavily dependent on their jobs. That power player had two important effects: because the employer has the upper hand, it can command lower wages; in turn, those lower wages drive credit, creating an entire economy based on debt, which reinforces the importance of securing a job, again driving wages lower, in a feedback loop. So, why that "find a job that you love" is utter bullshit then? Because, ultimately, every job is bad. Every job is an asymmetric negotiation where the employee exchanges his lifetime to a monetary reward that is, guaranteed, smaller than the value he adds. Not to say that it isn't useful, but is certainly a sub-optimal way of using oneself's limited time on earth. "Passive income" strategy is the exact opposite of that, since the rewards are not bound to how much you can charge your hour, and more to how valuable your work is. Historically, that's how writers, artists, inventors and such have made money. Nowadays, though, the potential is enormous given the cost of automation and reproduction of creative work is ever decreasing. If you stop and think, this is mind-blowing. Of course, Forbes doesn't want you to realize that.

readme 13y ago
Of course the passive income bootstrappers are getting slammed all day today on HN, the VCs don't make any money off of them. So hey, maybe you had an awesome idea and some ambition to build a company, you can be your own boss! Nah, just sell your soul to some investors, then you can have a master all over again just like you wanted.
carlob 13y ago
While I agree with your general sentiment, I think you need to check your historical facts. Up to the industrial revolution the vast majority of the workforce was in agriculture, namely either in serfdom or working somebody else's land for a pittance. Not many were really self sufficient. Secondly, artists, scholars, inventors where either nobles, priests or depending on the local court for their income.

readme 13y ago

I feel sorry for people like you, who feel sorry for others because they don't want to live their lives exactly like you think they should.

sliverstorm 13y ago

I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" We don't want your pity. I enjoy my work, but it isn't my life, because you know what? Aside from sleep and work, I have another perfectly good 8 hours a day that I elect to spend on things completely different from my day jobs. So while work is half of my life, work is not my life, and I do not intend to let it become my life.

Dewie 13y ago

> I always feel sorry for people who make statements like, "my work isn't my life" or "I work to live, I don't live to work". [...] And if your mindset is always that all work is bad, The first part is not inherently hateful towards working while the latter one is. > Considering how much of your life you dedicate towards working, why the hell aren't you making damn well sure it's doing something that gives you at least a sense of fulfillment, if not outright joy. Maybe they are. But people that say that they don't "live to work" seem to be more in opposition to the mindset of viewing everything through the lens of productivity and utility. They are against the idea that free time is chiefly about "recreation", ie about recharging your batteries/not burning out so that you can go back to being a fully productive worker bee at 9 am the next morning. In this "recreation" view, free time serves office time. In the view of "I don't live to work", work chiefly is about survival, and free time is about actually living. Does that mean they are necessarily against finding fulfilling work? No: work can be life-affirming (though I realize that some people might have such a chip on their shoulder towards work that they will never see it that way). But it certainly means that they refuse to delude themselves into thinking that working 60 hours a week at a job they at best feel lukewarm about is their grand purpose in life.

jcroll 13y ago

The world still needs janitors, ditch diggers...etc (at least for the moment), it's simply not realistic that everyone should like their jobs. Is it then logical that everyone should pursue fulfilling jobs? Perhaps, we do have a competitive economy after all but for those that "work-to-live", is that not a healthy outlook for our society's janitors and ditch diggers?

avn2109 13y ago
For a sufficiently large salary/light workweek I will dig ditches and like it.