5 ms·

Considering that the US Government no longer considers things like waterboarding and sleep depravation to be torture, I take little comfort in Holder's statemen

Considering that the US Government no longer considers things like waterboarding and sleep depravation to be torture, I take little comfort in Holder's statements.

baddox 13y ago
Also because the US government lies, even using its own definitions of terms.
anigbrowl 13y ago
Untrue. One of the first acts of the current administration was to ban waterboarding and other interrogation methods that are widely considered to be torture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Obama_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Obama_administra... The historical revisionism in this thread is nonsensical, I think you all know perfectly well that there's a sharp partisan divide on this issue.
- detcader 13y ago
  Is there? http://www.salon.com/2007/12/09/democrats_9/ http://www.salon.com/2007/12/09/democrats_9/ And solitary confinement is still fine, apparently. If people were waterboarded again, would anyone be punished? Maybe the private contractor doing it would be fined a portion of their annual profits. Maybe someone might step down -- down right into a private industry position or speaking tour. Seemingly every year since 2007 up to 2012, more and more people were pardoned for torturing. What's different in 2013?
  - cabalamat 13y ago
    > If people were waterboarded again, would anyone be punished? Yes -- the whistleblower who said people were being waterboarded.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Untrue, the US executed the Japanese who tortured US servicemen with water boarding in WWII. Just make sure you're certain what side you're on before doing it, and you'll be fine. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    What's different is that prior to 2009, the Bush administration considered such 'enhanced interrogation' methods to be legal, and instructed intelligence agents accordingly. People have been pardoned for activities that they were assured were legal and ordered to carry out - a sticky moral situation to be sure, but courts decide issues of law rather than morality. Since the change in 2009, nobody can say they thought things like waterboarding were legal, and if some field agent were to carry it out s/he would have no defense available in law. I don't want to turn this intoa Republican/Democrat political issue, but to pretend the two administrations are the same on this issue is just not credible and does not make for a constructive discussion. You can find plenty to criticize about the incumbent administration without needing to invent more.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  They might be banned, but allegations of further incidents of torture connected with US operations in Afghanistan (among other places) are still popping up regularly. When combined with Gitmo activities like force feeding (defined as torture by some authorities) and well, Gitmo existing at all, the US is maintaing a fairly poor record when human rights are concerned. Making a law doesn't change anything if you don't change behaviour by enforcing laws. I don't know what the sharp partisan divide refers to as I'm not American, but to say things are all ok now is very clearly incorrect. http://rt.com/news/torture-body-afghanistan-base-611/ http://rt.com/news/torture-body-afghanistan-base-611/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/torture-afghanistan/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/torture-afghanistan/ http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76653747/ http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76653747/
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I agree with you about the poor record, and think it's deplorable that Guantanmo remains in operation as it does. I hope when the war in Afghanistan is declared over next year that this stain on US human rights will finally be addressed. I just wanted to address the specific allegation above, which was turning the discussion from differing opinions into total inaccuracy.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      And I've added to the confusion by making a new comment rather than directly replying (like I thought I was) to your above comment at top of thread. The app I use on my phone is very easy to do this with: news:yc 1.5.2. I had misconstrued your views as defending current events rather then correcting a specific comment. Thanks for the reply.

Considering that the US Government no longer considers things like waterboarding and sleep depravation to be torture, I take little comfort in Holder's statements.

baddox 13y ago

Also because the US government lies, even using its own definitions of terms.

anigbrowl 13y ago

Untrue. One of the first acts of the current administration was to ban waterboarding and other interrogation methods that are widely considered to be torture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Obama_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Obama_administra... The historical revisionism in this thread is nonsensical, I think you all know perfectly well that there's a sharp partisan divide on this issue.

detcader 13y ago
Is there? http://www.salon.com/2007/12/09/democrats_9/ http://www.salon.com/2007/12/09/democrats_9/ And solitary confinement is still fine, apparently. If people were waterboarded again, would anyone be punished? Maybe the private contractor doing it would be fined a portion of their annual profits. Maybe someone might step down -- down right into a private industry position or speaking tour. Seemingly every year since 2007 up to 2012, more and more people were pardoned for torturing. What's different in 2013?
- cabalamat 13y ago
  > If people were waterboarded again, would anyone be punished? Yes -- the whistleblower who said people were being waterboarded.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Untrue, the US executed the Japanese who tortured US servicemen with water boarding in WWII. Just make sure you're certain what side you're on before doing it, and you'll be fine. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  What's different is that prior to 2009, the Bush administration considered such 'enhanced interrogation' methods to be legal, and instructed intelligence agents accordingly. People have been pardoned for activities that they were assured were legal and ordered to carry out - a sticky moral situation to be sure, but courts decide issues of law rather than morality. Since the change in 2009, nobody can say they thought things like waterboarding were legal, and if some field agent were to carry it out s/he would have no defense available in law. I don't want to turn this intoa Republican/Democrat political issue, but to pretend the two administrations are the same on this issue is just not credible and does not make for a constructive discussion. You can find plenty to criticize about the incumbent administration without needing to invent more.
lostlogin 13y ago
They might be banned, but allegations of further incidents of torture connected with US operations in Afghanistan (among other places) are still popping up regularly. When combined with Gitmo activities like force feeding (defined as torture by some authorities) and well, Gitmo existing at all, the US is maintaing a fairly poor record when human rights are concerned. Making a law doesn't change anything if you don't change behaviour by enforcing laws. I don't know what the sharp partisan divide refers to as I'm not American, but to say things are all ok now is very clearly incorrect. http://rt.com/news/torture-body-afghanistan-base-611/ http://rt.com/news/torture-body-afghanistan-base-611/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/torture-afghanistan/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/torture-afghanistan/ http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76653747/ http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76653747/
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  I agree with you about the poor record, and think it's deplorable that Guantanmo remains in operation as it does. I hope when the war in Afghanistan is declared over next year that this stain on US human rights will finally be addressed. I just wanted to address the specific allegation above, which was turning the discussion from differing opinions into total inaccuracy.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    And I've added to the confusion by making a new comment rather than directly replying (like I thought I was) to your above comment at top of thread. The app I use on my phone is very easy to do this with: news:yc 1.5.2. I had misconstrued your views as defending current events rather then correcting a specific comment. Thanks for the reply.