5 ms·

"If western politicians could just get over their taboos about drug use and let idiots stuff themselves with whatever drugs they like, not just nicotine and alc

"If western politicians could just get over their taboos about drug use and let idiots stuff themselves with whatever drugs they like, not just nicotine and alcohol, we would make the US richer and safer." Seriously? I'm not sure if you're saying to legalize all drugs, but that's how I'm interpreting this.... Legalizing addictive drugs will make us safer & richer? I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high. It affects far more than just the user, it affects the families, the kids, the neighborhood, the town, etc. Even if we taxed it, those taxes would likely go right back into having more security: police officers, hospitals, etc. Sure pot might be more or less harmless, but letting people stuff themselves with any drug of choice seems very wrong. There are some drugs that I think should absolutely be restricted very tightly.

pessimizer 13y ago
A dose of heroin costs a nickel. You don't have to steal very much to accumulate a nickel. The reason that junkies are thieves are the prices caused by prohibition.
seiji 13y ago
Legalizing alcohol will make us safer & richer? I feel like if we legalized alcohol, we'd have drunks all over the place abusing their partners and killing people with intoxicated driving.
pstuart 13y ago
Right now "legalized heroin" is killing lots of people: http://www.tampabay.com/news/nation/drug-overdose-deaths-up-for-11th-consecutive-year/1275855 http://www.tampabay.com/news/nation/drug-overdose-deaths-up-... Making it illegal doesn't stop those who will use it. It didn't stop my brother, who ended up dying from a heroin overdose. But legal alcohol was always available and my mother was able to drink herself to death. Legally. So let me call the cops on you for having beer in your house and kick in your doors and kill your dog and hall your ass off to jail for your protection. Ugh. Keep your fucking nanny state to yourself.
seldo 13y ago
I am absolutely saying to legalize all drugs, even the incredibly addictive ones. Spend a fraction of the money you spend now on locking up drug users to treatment of addicts. If drugs were all legal tomorrow, would you run out and try heroin? No. Most people don't want hard drugs, and the people who do can already get them, and those people aren't all becoming drug addicts, otherwise Burning Man would be a city of 50,000 hopeless junkies every year. Drug addiction -- like alcoholism -- happens only to a fraction of users, and in both cases factors like poverty, genetics and bad home situations are contributing factors. Drug addiction absolutely does affect more than just the user, but the effect of legalizing drugs (again, not hypothetically, see Portugal) is less addiction, not more, and better treatment for those who do become addicted.
toomuchtodo 13y ago
Real data says you're wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal I mean we can argue all day long over the emotional aspect, but real-life data is hard to argue with: Decriminalization (along with rehabilitation for those who want it) reduces crime. Full stop.
aqme28 13y ago
"I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high. It affects far more than just the user, it affects the families, the kids, the neighborhood, the town, etc. Even if we taxed it, those taxes would likely go right back into having more security: police officers, hospitals, etc." While it sounds really appealing, there is no evidence to support this. What there is evidence for however (see Portugal), is that decriminalizing drugs and advocating treatment programs will lead to fewer infections, crimes, and even fewer addicts.
exxar 13y ago
"I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high." Why? Do you know anyone who doesn't use heroin now, just because it's illegal? Highly addictive opiods such as percocet, oxycodone, codeine, etc. are legal (although regulated). Many of the risks associated with heroin use derive from its illegality, in the sense that people use heroin which has unknown purity (i.e. can be cut with other drugs), use unsterilized needles, and take unsafe dosages (i.e. there is no physician regulating the amount they consume nor preventing addiction). My point is not that heroin is a safe drug, or that anyone should take it. But drug laws are applied with incredible inconsistency. Cocaine, which is potentially addictive and dangerous, is a Schedule II drug, while marijuana and even hallucinogens such as LSD are Schedule I drugs (meaning they have strong potential for addiction and no recognized medical use, which is simply untrue). Addictive opiods marketed as prescription drugs, meanwhile, are legal with regulation. Not to mention alcohol and tobacco, two highly addictive and unhealthy drugs which are perfectly legal.
- vidarh 13y ago
  A pet peeve of mine since you mentioned codeine, that neatly shows just how fucked up government regulation in this area can be: There's good evidence that restrictions on quantity of acetaminophen/paracetamol sold in a single transaction reduces overdose deaths. E.g. in the UK it is estimated that restrictions to 16 (in regular shops) or 32 tablets per sale (in pharmacies) has saved 600+ lives since 1998. There are still 100+ deaths a year from it, though. Yet the sale of pure codeine is substantially more heavily regulated than the sale of co-codamol and other variations of paracetamol/acetaminophen or ibuprofen mixed with codeine at ratios that means that anyone with a serious codeine addiction finding themselves unable to get a prescription or find a dealer for pure codeine might find the mixed products available over the counter as their only source at times. Yet chances are they will have to take a potentially dangerous dose of other painkillers to get their codeine high. So, we have evidence that people often intentionally or accidentally die of acetaminophen/paracetamol as well as ibuprofen overdoses. Yet we consider it acceptable to require codeine to be mixed with these (and other) drugs for over the counter sales. Codeine alone is one of the safest opiates we know, with a substantial safety margin for use, but also highly addictive, and so chances are a subset of users will get sufficiently addicted to be unable to properly control their usage, even in the face of taking substantial risks. In other words: Fuck off and die a painful death if you get addicted enough to fail to manage to resist (or pay attention to) taking too much of the other drugs it's mixed with. Oh, and when you die, remember it's because we intentionally ensured you had a supply that was effectively mixed with poison. That codeine addiction is often the result of its extensive use as a prescription painkiller and in hospitals exactly because it is so safe on its own just makes the whole thing more offensive.
Zigurd 13y ago
Do you think laws deter needle drug addicts? If not, getting rid of the laws isn't going to increase the number of needle drug addicts. And that's on top of studies showing treatment is much more effective and cheaper for harm reduction.
Daniel_Newby 13y ago
> I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high. Diacetylmorphine, brand name Heroin, costs about $0.25 a day, or $1 per day for the pharmacy grade injectable version. Junkies are called that because the original Heroin addicts wandered around trading junk, bits of scrap and garbage that could be sold to junk traders to get the pennies it took to support their habit. The present high price of Heroin is a deliberate policy decision. It's a transfer payment from your stolen TV to the drug cartels, in much the same way that Social Security is a transfer payment from your employer to your grandma.
tomjen3 13y ago
It doesn't matter. The real cost of heroin, once supply is up and running in the huge, safe, FDA controlled factories that makes all the other pills we take it will cost less than a bum can get in an hour. It is completely generic. How much does an Aspirin cost?
vidarh 13y ago
Why would heroin junkies run all over the place stealing stuff if they could get heroin at for low enough prices that it'd be easy to finance on a normal job? And yes, a heroin junkie can hold down a normal job especially if they have a steady supply of heroin. Many do. The biggest problem with living a normal life for a heroin junkie is the time and effort spent chasing down heroin supplies and cash. You might very well know heroin junkies without knowing it - someone with sufficient cash to not have to worry will most of the time appear completely "normal". That's not to say that heroin doesn't have a lot of problems, but clean heroin, used with clean syringes, is still fairly safe. What isn't safe is the alternative - what we see today: products that have been mixed with all kinds of crap, of varying strengths, dirty syringes, and price levels that drive users to crime because it's the only way they can afford their habit. And do you really think that lots of people would suddenly decide "oh, cool, heroin is legal now - lets shoot up"? Heroin junkies are hardly top of the totem pole, and being able to go to a pharmacy and buy it would hardly make it cooler. What affects the families, the kids, the neighbourhoods the most is when we treat users as criminals because of their addiction, and force many of them to carry out crimes to meet needs they have minimal control over, as well as make it risky for them to seek help when they need it without facing legal threats.

pessimizer 13y ago

A dose of heroin costs a nickel. You don't have to steal very much to accumulate a nickel. The reason that junkies are thieves are the prices caused by prohibition.

seiji 13y ago

Legalizing alcohol will make us safer & richer? I feel like if we legalized alcohol, we'd have drunks all over the place abusing their partners and killing people with intoxicated driving.

pstuart 13y ago

Right now "legalized heroin" is killing lots of people: http://www.tampabay.com/news/nation/drug-overdose-deaths-up-for-11th-consecutive-year/1275855 http://www.tampabay.com/news/nation/drug-overdose-deaths-up-... Making it illegal doesn't stop those who will use it. It didn't stop my brother, who ended up dying from a heroin overdose. But legal alcohol was always available and my mother was able to drink herself to death. Legally. So let me call the cops on you for having beer in your house and kick in your doors and kill your dog and hall your ass off to jail for your protection. Ugh. Keep your fucking nanny state to yourself.

seldo 13y ago

I am absolutely saying to legalize all drugs, even the incredibly addictive ones. Spend a fraction of the money you spend now on locking up drug users to treatment of addicts. If drugs were all legal tomorrow, would you run out and try heroin? No. Most people don't want hard drugs, and the people who do can already get them, and those people aren't all becoming drug addicts, otherwise Burning Man would be a city of 50,000 hopeless junkies every year. Drug addiction -- like alcoholism -- happens only to a fraction of users, and in both cases factors like poverty, genetics and bad home situations are contributing factors. Drug addiction absolutely does affect more than just the user, but the effect of legalizing drugs (again, not hypothetically, see Portugal) is less addiction, not more, and better treatment for those who do become addicted.

toomuchtodo 13y ago

Real data says you're wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal I mean we can argue all day long over the emotional aspect, but real-life data is hard to argue with: Decriminalization (along with rehabilitation for those who want it) reduces crime. Full stop.

aqme28 13y ago

"I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high. It affects far more than just the user, it affects the families, the kids, the neighborhood, the town, etc. Even if we taxed it, those taxes would likely go right back into having more security: police officers, hospitals, etc." While it sounds really appealing, there is no evidence to support this. What there is evidence for however (see Portugal), is that decriminalizing drugs and advocating treatment programs will lead to fewer infections, crimes, and even fewer addicts.

exxar 13y ago

"I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high." Why? Do you know anyone who doesn't use heroin now, just because it's illegal? Highly addictive opiods such as percocet, oxycodone, codeine, etc. are legal (although regulated). Many of the risks associated with heroin use derive from its illegality, in the sense that people use heroin which has unknown purity (i.e. can be cut with other drugs), use unsterilized needles, and take unsafe dosages (i.e. there is no physician regulating the amount they consume nor preventing addiction). My point is not that heroin is a safe drug, or that anyone should take it. But drug laws are applied with incredible inconsistency. Cocaine, which is potentially addictive and dangerous, is a Schedule II drug, while marijuana and even hallucinogens such as LSD are Schedule I drugs (meaning they have strong potential for addiction and no recognized medical use, which is simply untrue). Addictive opiods marketed as prescription drugs, meanwhile, are legal with regulation. Not to mention alcohol and tobacco, two highly addictive and unhealthy drugs which are perfectly legal.

vidarh 13y ago
A pet peeve of mine since you mentioned codeine, that neatly shows just how fucked up government regulation in this area can be: There's good evidence that restrictions on quantity of acetaminophen/paracetamol sold in a single transaction reduces overdose deaths. E.g. in the UK it is estimated that restrictions to 16 (in regular shops) or 32 tablets per sale (in pharmacies) has saved 600+ lives since 1998. There are still 100+ deaths a year from it, though. Yet the sale of pure codeine is substantially more heavily regulated than the sale of co-codamol and other variations of paracetamol/acetaminophen or ibuprofen mixed with codeine at ratios that means that anyone with a serious codeine addiction finding themselves unable to get a prescription or find a dealer for pure codeine might find the mixed products available over the counter as their only source at times. Yet chances are they will have to take a potentially dangerous dose of other painkillers to get their codeine high. So, we have evidence that people often intentionally or accidentally die of acetaminophen/paracetamol as well as ibuprofen overdoses. Yet we consider it acceptable to require codeine to be mixed with these (and other) drugs for over the counter sales. Codeine alone is one of the safest opiates we know, with a substantial safety margin for use, but also highly addictive, and so chances are a subset of users will get sufficiently addicted to be unable to properly control their usage, even in the face of taking substantial risks. In other words: Fuck off and die a painful death if you get addicted enough to fail to manage to resist (or pay attention to) taking too much of the other drugs it's mixed with. Oh, and when you die, remember it's because we intentionally ensured you had a supply that was effectively mixed with poison. That codeine addiction is often the result of its extensive use as a prescription painkiller and in hospitals exactly because it is so safe on its own just makes the whole thing more offensive.

Zigurd 13y ago

Do you think laws deter needle drug addicts? If not, getting rid of the laws isn't going to increase the number of needle drug addicts. And that's on top of studies showing treatment is much more effective and cheaper for harm reduction.

Daniel_Newby 13y ago

> I feel like if we legalized heroin, we'd have junkies all over the place running around stealing whatever isn't bolted down just to get the next high. Diacetylmorphine, brand name Heroin, costs about $0.25 a day, or $1 per day for the pharmacy grade injectable version. Junkies are called that because the original Heroin addicts wandered around trading junk, bits of scrap and garbage that could be sold to junk traders to get the pennies it took to support their habit. The present high price of Heroin is a deliberate policy decision. It's a transfer payment from your stolen TV to the drug cartels, in much the same way that Social Security is a transfer payment from your employer to your grandma.

tomjen3 13y ago

It doesn't matter. The real cost of heroin, once supply is up and running in the huge, safe, FDA controlled factories that makes all the other pills we take it will cost less than a bum can get in an hour. It is completely generic. How much does an Aspirin cost?

vidarh 13y ago

Why would heroin junkies run all over the place stealing stuff if they could get heroin at for low enough prices that it'd be easy to finance on a normal job? And yes, a heroin junkie can hold down a normal job especially if they have a steady supply of heroin. Many do. The biggest problem with living a normal life for a heroin junkie is the time and effort spent chasing down heroin supplies and cash. You might very well know heroin junkies without knowing it - someone with sufficient cash to not have to worry will most of the time appear completely "normal". That's not to say that heroin doesn't have a lot of problems, but clean heroin, used with clean syringes, is still fairly safe. What isn't safe is the alternative - what we see today: products that have been mixed with all kinds of crap, of varying strengths, dirty syringes, and price levels that drive users to crime because it's the only way they can afford their habit. And do you really think that lots of people would suddenly decide "oh, cool, heroin is legal now - lets shoot up"? Heroin junkies are hardly top of the totem pole, and being able to go to a pharmacy and buy it would hardly make it cooler. What affects the families, the kids, the neighbourhoods the most is when we treat users as criminals because of their addiction, and force many of them to carry out crimes to meet needs they have minimal control over, as well as make it risky for them to seek help when they need it without facing legal threats.