7 ms·

Wait, so they'll still buy a Dell or HP that is manufactured in China, by a Chinese company, but has the nameplate of an American company slapped on the front,

by glesica 13y ago

Wait, so they'll still buy a Dell or HP that is manufactured in China, by a Chinese company, but has the nameplate of an American company slapped on the front, but they won't buy a Lenovo? I'm so confused.

harshreality 13y ago
You're confused because you didn't read the article very well. It's reporting allegations of specifically identified malicious elements of Lenovo hardware and firmware.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
rhizome 13y ago
The fact is that "oh no, CHINA!" has most-favored-nation status with the US and is a major major partner in pretty much every way, including positive ones. The rending of garments like this is just a couple of boardroom loudmouths posturing, like Facebook and Google taking potshots at each other. Competitors, not enemies.
samspenc 13y ago
IMHO, there's a big difference between American companies that manufacture in China and can ensure certain functionality (I for one support "made in USA" and buy that if I can)... and Chinese companies, esp. ones with CCP connections, who can build electronics any which way they would like to.
- glesica 13y ago
  How can Dell check for back doors when the entire design and manufacturing process is done by Chinese subcontractors? That makes no sense...
  - 300bps 13y ago
    How can Dell check for back doors when the entire design and manufacturing process is done by Chinese subcontractors? That makes no sense.. Through testing, just like the governments did to discover alleged backdoors in Lenovo chips. Did you read the article before you posted multiple times criticizing it? The ban was introduced in the mid-2000s after intensive laboratory testing of its equipment allegedly documented “back-door” hardware and “firmware” vulnerabilities in Lenovo chips.
    - anonymousDan 13y ago
      I see such back doors as less of a problem for the general public than it is for intelligence agencies because because even a single malicious device could result in a major security breach and so randomized testing mightn't be as effective. If trying to snoop on the general public on an ongoing basis though then it would be hard to avoid randomized testing (presuming someone is actually doing such testing).
    - glesica 13y ago
      Do they check every machine? From TFA: > A technology expert at the Washington-based Brookings Institution, Professor John Villasenor, said the globalisation of the semi-conductor market has “made it not only possible but inevitable that chips that have been intentionally and maliciously altered to contain hidden ‘Trojan’ circuitry will be inserted into the supply chain. So we aren't necessarily talking about every single machine being back-doored. My point is that Dell and HP aren't necessarily any more secure just because they're American companies. The home-country of the company whose badge is on the machine is pretty much meaningless in a globalized world. The article also contains some suggestion that this was motivated by rivalry in addition to security, so there's that as well.
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    Theoretically the same way the article claims the NSA does, with a specialized lab for hardware testing. Whether they actually do or not, who knows.
- nawitus 13y ago
  >I for one support "made in USA" and buy that if I can I'd never understood this kind of nationalism. I don't care if the items I purchase happen to have been made in the country I happen to live. I want to buy the product that best suits my needs regardless of where it was manufactured. Sure, if an American product happens to have a higher quality and I'm looking for that, then I can choose to buy it. In that case you can abstract away the manufacturing country, so "made in country X" shouldn't be a factor in any case. If anything, Western people should buy products from poor countries. It's the best aid they can get.
  - tnuc 13y ago
    Unfortunately your economic rationale makes little sense to most people, even quite a few economists.
    - SamReidHughes 13y ago
      The economists who are anti-trade?
  - mcantelon 13y ago
    >I'd never understood this kind of nationalism. Some people want to support their own community and some are concerned about labor/environment standards, human rights, civil liberties, etc.
    - nawitus 13y ago
      >Some people want to support their own community I don't think that's necessary nor ethically justified (though I understand why some people support it). It's like a some kind abstract form of 'cartel', i.e. "I support you, you support me". However, it's taking money away from poor countries (in this context). I don't think some 'rich' Westerner who happens to live near me is more deserving of my money than a poor person in a third-world country. >some are concerned about labor/environment standards, human rights, civil liberties, etc. Ironically, the only way those poor countries will have labour/environment standards, human rights and civil liberties is throug economic growth. If you're poor, you can't afford workplace safety.
- dhughes 13y ago
  Careful marketing is tricky the phrase "made in America" may not mean what you think it means. I'd say you're looking for "Product of USA" which means a totally different thing i.e. actually made in the USA. I know here in Canada on investigative consumer shows it's been shown "made in" may simply mean a product was assembled from parts made in another country or maybe 51% of the product was made in your country. Preying on a person's nationalistic feelings is a powerful marketing tool to get people to buy a product.
huhtenberg 13y ago
What makes you think they buy off-the-shelf Chinese-assembled Dells and HPs?
- mhurron 13y ago
  If they weren't buying off the shelf computers to begin with this announcement wouldn't have been required.
- glesica 13y ago
  I don't know for certain, but having dealt with Dell before (as an institutional customer), I know the government buys off-the-shelf Dells. Now, maybe the intelligence agencies have special arrangements, I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me. I'm sure they do more than just unpack the box and plop it onto the desk, but I doubt Dell or HP have special manufacturing facilities for intelligence agency machines.
  - Zakharov 13y ago
    Most of the computers in a defence facility are unclassified or restricted. The rules are different for secret/top secret.
Zakharov 13y ago
The article never stated that they would do so.

by glesica 13y ago

harshreality 13y ago

You're confused because you didn't read the article very well. It's reporting allegations of specifically identified malicious elements of Lenovo hardware and firmware.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

rhizome 13y ago

The fact is that "oh no, CHINA!" has most-favored-nation status with the US and is a major major partner in pretty much every way, including positive ones. The rending of garments like this is just a couple of boardroom loudmouths posturing, like Facebook and Google taking potshots at each other. Competitors, not enemies.

samspenc 13y ago

IMHO, there's a big difference between American companies that manufacture in China and can ensure certain functionality (I for one support "made in USA" and buy that if I can)... and Chinese companies, esp. ones with CCP connections, who can build electronics any which way they would like to.

glesica 13y ago
How can Dell check for back doors when the entire design and manufacturing process is done by Chinese subcontractors? That makes no sense...
- 300bps 13y ago
  How can Dell check for back doors when the entire design and manufacturing process is done by Chinese subcontractors? That makes no sense.. Through testing, just like the governments did to discover alleged backdoors in Lenovo chips. Did you read the article before you posted multiple times criticizing it? The ban was introduced in the mid-2000s after intensive laboratory testing of its equipment allegedly documented “back-door” hardware and “firmware” vulnerabilities in Lenovo chips.
  - anonymousDan 13y ago
    I see such back doors as less of a problem for the general public than it is for intelligence agencies because because even a single malicious device could result in a major security breach and so randomized testing mightn't be as effective. If trying to snoop on the general public on an ongoing basis though then it would be hard to avoid randomized testing (presuming someone is actually doing such testing).
  - glesica 13y ago
    Do they check every machine? From TFA: > A technology expert at the Washington-based Brookings Institution, Professor John Villasenor, said the globalisation of the semi-conductor market has “made it not only possible but inevitable that chips that have been intentionally and maliciously altered to contain hidden ‘Trojan’ circuitry will be inserted into the supply chain. So we aren't necessarily talking about every single machine being back-doored. My point is that Dell and HP aren't necessarily any more secure just because they're American companies. The home-country of the company whose badge is on the machine is pretty much meaningless in a globalized world. The article also contains some suggestion that this was motivated by rivalry in addition to security, so there's that as well.
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  Theoretically the same way the article claims the NSA does, with a specialized lab for hardware testing. Whether they actually do or not, who knows.
nawitus 13y ago
>I for one support "made in USA" and buy that if I can I'd never understood this kind of nationalism. I don't care if the items I purchase happen to have been made in the country I happen to live. I want to buy the product that best suits my needs regardless of where it was manufactured. Sure, if an American product happens to have a higher quality and I'm looking for that, then I can choose to buy it. In that case you can abstract away the manufacturing country, so "made in country X" shouldn't be a factor in any case. If anything, Western people should buy products from poor countries. It's the best aid they can get.
- tnuc 13y ago
  Unfortunately your economic rationale makes little sense to most people, even quite a few economists.
  - SamReidHughes 13y ago
    The economists who are anti-trade?
- mcantelon 13y ago
  >I'd never understood this kind of nationalism. Some people want to support their own community and some are concerned about labor/environment standards, human rights, civil liberties, etc.
  - nawitus 13y ago
    >Some people want to support their own community I don't think that's necessary nor ethically justified (though I understand why some people support it). It's like a some kind abstract form of 'cartel', i.e. "I support you, you support me". However, it's taking money away from poor countries (in this context). I don't think some 'rich' Westerner who happens to live near me is more deserving of my money than a poor person in a third-world country. >some are concerned about labor/environment standards, human rights, civil liberties, etc. Ironically, the only way those poor countries will have labour/environment standards, human rights and civil liberties is throug economic growth. If you're poor, you can't afford workplace safety.
dhughes 13y ago
Careful marketing is tricky the phrase "made in America" may not mean what you think it means. I'd say you're looking for "Product of USA" which means a totally different thing i.e. actually made in the USA. I know here in Canada on investigative consumer shows it's been shown "made in" may simply mean a product was assembled from parts made in another country or maybe 51% of the product was made in your country. Preying on a person's nationalistic feelings is a powerful marketing tool to get people to buy a product.

huhtenberg 13y ago

What makes you think they buy off-the-shelf Chinese-assembled Dells and HPs?

mhurron 13y ago
If they weren't buying off the shelf computers to begin with this announcement wouldn't have been required.
glesica 13y ago
I don't know for certain, but having dealt with Dell before (as an institutional customer), I know the government buys off-the-shelf Dells. Now, maybe the intelligence agencies have special arrangements, I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me. I'm sure they do more than just unpack the box and plop it onto the desk, but I doubt Dell or HP have special manufacturing facilities for intelligence agency machines.
- Zakharov 13y ago
  Most of the computers in a defence facility are unclassified or restricted. The rules are different for secret/top secret.

Zakharov 13y ago

The article never stated that they would do so.