5 ms·

This is like not knowing the return or exit function, and is also used for telnet or serial console connections. If knowledge is so shallow on a particular tool

by hhw 13y ago

This is like not knowing the return or exit function, and is also used for telnet or serial console connections. If knowledge is so shallow on a particular tool, it should not count as being part of the toolset. There's nothing more basic or essential to SSH than connecting and disconnecting. And it's right there on the man page, not exactly a hidden feature. This is more beginner level knowledge, maybe novice if being very very generous, but nowhere near expert level.

davidw 13y ago
Connecting: type ssh and the hostname. Disconnecting: type exit or ctrl-d or whatever on the remote end. That's enough for many people. For a group of people as large as HN, there are bound to be many people who are experts in one thing, and marginal with others, so articles like this are likely to appeal to them, and be useful.
- hhw 13y ago
  I would agree if it were for some more obscure yet useful feature, but this is one of the basics, that's clearly documented. This should not be useful for anyone who's ever read the man page, and anyone who's used ssh should have read the man page at least once. That so many people apparently haven't, in what's supposed to be highly technical community, is a very disappointing sign of intellectual indolence.
  - davidw 13y ago
    On my system, I ran this: nice man -l -Tdvi man*/* | wc And got 3416771 6700199 122007116 At more than 6 million words, that's approximately 10 War and Peace's. And of course in terms of documentation, that's only man pages, which doesn't cover all the stuff that's in other formats like info or html. You cannot be an expert in everything: I knew about that command for closing ssh, but frankly it is not something I use because it's easier to just close the rxvt and be done with it. I have zillions of other things to occupy my brain. I'd also argue that in terms of ssh, since this function is so easily accomplished in other ways, this is really just handy triva. Much more useful to know about are all the tunneling things, as they are not necessarily obvious, and can be extremely useful.
    - hhw 13y ago
      I'm hardly advocating reading every single man page; just the man pages for things you actually use. And 10x War and Peace's is hardly an extreme amount of reading to become a knowledgeable systems administrator. That would probably be akin to two semesters of 5 courses each to become a systems administrator; I think most community college or vocational school programs for systems administration require 2 years, and wouldn't teach you nearly as much. In any event, I'm not taking the position that casual *nix users should be reading every single man page. Just for the essentials like ssh, cp/mv, ls, man itself, etc. You do not need to be an expert to read a few man pages on utilities you often use. Everyone should RTFM, at least for the relevant bits, no matter what level you're at. Anyone who found the initial post useful would also find reading the man page for ssh useful. Thus, they should have read it. That's not at all suggesting that they need to become an expert. The ~. key sequence is used in pretty much any console type application, not just ssh, so it's quite useful to know. If you do any work with a serial console i.e. configuring network devices, pdus, even some servers, etc., then it's pretty useful for ending a session as there's no TCP connection to close and take you back to the local console on your terminal emulator. If you're working on the actual local console and not in a full blown GUI on a system without virtual consoles, there may be no other way to close the serial console session on some platforms (notably man different OS'es running on Sparc64's as well as not on Solaris at all until recently). Regardless, it's generally less effort to type ~. than to close and reopen a window/tab in your terminal emulator of choice. The time spent to read the man page would inevitably be made up by a few clicks saved here and there throughout a long career. It would have taken less time than to make multiple posts in this thread.
eropple 13y ago
I've been using SSH for fifteen years. I have never read the man page because I have never needed to--I have scanned it for specific topics but I have never been quite so teeth-pullingly. This is new and useful information to me and so I upvoted it. On the other hand, I am certain that many, many things I consider trivial would be out of your realm of knowledge and relative understanding of what is and is not trivial should lead you to act better than you are acting. Or, put another way: don't be an asshole.
- hhw 13y ago
  At the end of the day, RTFM is much more helpful than spoon feeding someone an answer. Maybe it comes off as being an asshole, but a little shame can be a good motivator for a neophyte to learn how to teach themselves, and they will be better off for it in the long run. "Teach a man to fish" and all that.
  - eropple 13y ago
    Do you want a shovel for that giant hole you're digging? "A little shame is a good thing" says to everybody around you that you're more interested in feeling good about yourself than helping people. And it's a joke to boot. I've been doing this for around fifteen years, I've written multiple telnet server applications and a MUD client, and I didn't know about this feature in telnet/rlogin/ssh.
    - hhw 13y ago
      Or maybe because I was once a neophyte that was shamed into RTFM, which had a very positive effect on my life, I'm advocating other people RTFM also? Which would hopefully help them as much as it did me? This is generally how things work for online communities, be it an IRC channel, a mailing list, or web forums. Why shouldn't it be that way on HN, especially as RTFM is as much part of hacker culture as anything. Meanwhile, you're resorting to making baseless assumptions about a total stranger on the Internet, and bringing your own credentials into this rather than focusing on the argument at hand. Who's digging the giant hole? Who's more interested in feeling good about himself? I really couldn't care less what your personal story is, or what you've imagined up about mine. Let's stick to why someone should or should not RTFM, okay?

by hhw 13y ago

davidw 13y ago

Connecting: type ssh and the hostname. Disconnecting: type exit or ctrl-d or whatever on the remote end. That's enough for many people. For a group of people as large as HN, there are bound to be many people who are experts in one thing, and marginal with others, so articles like this are likely to appeal to them, and be useful.

hhw 13y ago
I would agree if it were for some more obscure yet useful feature, but this is one of the basics, that's clearly documented. This should not be useful for anyone who's ever read the man page, and anyone who's used ssh should have read the man page at least once. That so many people apparently haven't, in what's supposed to be highly technical community, is a very disappointing sign of intellectual indolence.
- davidw 13y ago
  On my system, I ran this: nice man -l -Tdvi man*/* | wc And got 3416771 6700199 122007116 At more than 6 million words, that's approximately 10 War and Peace's. And of course in terms of documentation, that's only man pages, which doesn't cover all the stuff that's in other formats like info or html. You cannot be an expert in everything: I knew about that command for closing ssh, but frankly it is not something I use because it's easier to just close the rxvt and be done with it. I have zillions of other things to occupy my brain. I'd also argue that in terms of ssh, since this function is so easily accomplished in other ways, this is really just handy triva. Much more useful to know about are all the tunneling things, as they are not necessarily obvious, and can be extremely useful.
  - hhw 13y ago
    I'm hardly advocating reading every single man page; just the man pages for things you actually use. And 10x War and Peace's is hardly an extreme amount of reading to become a knowledgeable systems administrator. That would probably be akin to two semesters of 5 courses each to become a systems administrator; I think most community college or vocational school programs for systems administration require 2 years, and wouldn't teach you nearly as much. In any event, I'm not taking the position that casual *nix users should be reading every single man page. Just for the essentials like ssh, cp/mv, ls, man itself, etc. You do not need to be an expert to read a few man pages on utilities you often use. Everyone should RTFM, at least for the relevant bits, no matter what level you're at. Anyone who found the initial post useful would also find reading the man page for ssh useful. Thus, they should have read it. That's not at all suggesting that they need to become an expert. The ~. key sequence is used in pretty much any console type application, not just ssh, so it's quite useful to know. If you do any work with a serial console i.e. configuring network devices, pdus, even some servers, etc., then it's pretty useful for ending a session as there's no TCP connection to close and take you back to the local console on your terminal emulator. If you're working on the actual local console and not in a full blown GUI on a system without virtual consoles, there may be no other way to close the serial console session on some platforms (notably man different OS'es running on Sparc64's as well as not on Solaris at all until recently). Regardless, it's generally less effort to type ~. than to close and reopen a window/tab in your terminal emulator of choice. The time spent to read the man page would inevitably be made up by a few clicks saved here and there throughout a long career. It would have taken less time than to make multiple posts in this thread.

eropple 13y ago

I've been using SSH for fifteen years. I have never read the man page because I have never needed to--I have scanned it for specific topics but I have never been quite so teeth-pullingly. This is new and useful information to me and so I upvoted it. On the other hand, I am certain that many, many things I consider trivial would be out of your realm of knowledge and relative understanding of what is and is not trivial should lead you to act better than you are acting. Or, put another way: don't be an asshole.

hhw 13y ago
At the end of the day, RTFM is much more helpful than spoon feeding someone an answer. Maybe it comes off as being an asshole, but a little shame can be a good motivator for a neophyte to learn how to teach themselves, and they will be better off for it in the long run. "Teach a man to fish" and all that.
- eropple 13y ago
  Do you want a shovel for that giant hole you're digging? "A little shame is a good thing" says to everybody around you that you're more interested in feeling good about yourself than helping people. And it's a joke to boot. I've been doing this for around fifteen years, I've written multiple telnet server applications and a MUD client, and I didn't know about this feature in telnet/rlogin/ssh.
  - hhw 13y ago
    Or maybe because I was once a neophyte that was shamed into RTFM, which had a very positive effect on my life, I'm advocating other people RTFM also? Which would hopefully help them as much as it did me? This is generally how things work for online communities, be it an IRC channel, a mailing list, or web forums. Why shouldn't it be that way on HN, especially as RTFM is as much part of hacker culture as anything. Meanwhile, you're resorting to making baseless assumptions about a total stranger on the Internet, and bringing your own credentials into this rather than focusing on the argument at hand. Who's digging the giant hole? Who's more interested in feeling good about himself? I really couldn't care less what your personal story is, or what you've imagined up about mine. Let's stick to why someone should or should not RTFM, okay?