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"Hard working, innovative technology companies are losing out to foreign companies due to this unaccountable, big government program. It's time to reign in this

by flyt 13y ago

"Hard working, innovative technology companies are losing out to foreign companies due to this unaccountable, big government program. It's time to reign in this anticompetitive NSA behavior and let American business compete on a level playing field." *formatted for a talking head to use on FOX News/MSNBC/CNN

derefr 13y ago
That's beautiful. Now do company-sponsored/pre-tax health insurance coverage!
jrockway 13y ago
Can't the NSA spy on foreign operations without any legal oversight, as opposed to spying on domestic operations with "oversight" from a secret court? Both are bad.
- glesica 13y ago
  Since all of the companies fingered as cooperating actively with PRISM were American companies, the assumption is that while the NSA may spy on foreign companies those companies are not actively cooperating with the NSA and it is therefore (in theory, I suppose) harder for the NSA to get at their data.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Can't the NSA spy on foreign operations without any legal oversight Yeah. It would be kind of bizarre to have a military signals intelligence service where spying on foreign electronic communications was some kind of exceptional activity. The whole point of the NSA is spying on foreign operations. The legal restrictions involving a "secret court" (the two courts themselves aren't secret, though their proceedings tend to be) for oversight are to prevent the abuse of the "foreign intelligence" excuse as a backdoor for blanket domestic surveillance. Or at least, that was the original purpose of FISA after exactly that kind of abuse. With various "War on Terror" era changes, its arguable that the purpose of the oversight has been reversed so that it now serves as a form of legal cover for the abuse of the "foreign intelligence" excuse as a backdoor for blanket domestic surveillance.
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    Yeah. It would be kind of bizarre to have a military signals intelligence service where spying on foreign electronic communications was some kind of exceptional activity. And then international travel became a routine occurrence, and countries made "alliances", and international commerce became one of the most powerful forces driving the global economy, and the Internet arrived, and the kind of black and white world you're imagining went away. No country exists in such a vacuum in the twenty-first century, and a country that respects the basic rights of its own people but completely ignores the rights of others will pay a price for that hostility sooner or later. At least today that price is mostly measured in dollars and not blood as it might have been a few decades ago. It's sad that a lot of the abuses we've seen and heard about in recent years have to be curtailed through financial pressure and not politicians doing the right thing, but that doesn't make people voting with their wallets any less effective.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty; relations between nations remain stuck in a place very close to the Hobbesian state of nature. Insofar as this is a problem to solve, the solution is popularly accountable governments with broader geographic scope than existing nation-states. Note, however, that, there's not much movement in this direction (EU expansion is pretty much it) anywhere in the world, and some movement in the other direction.
      - Silhouette 13y ago
        Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty I don't know how meaningful "sovereignty" is any more, though. We live in very literally a global community today. People visit each other's countries for work and pleasure, some for a short time, some making a relatively permanent move. Even without physical presence, in the age of the Internet and easy international shipping, everyone's economy depends deeply on those outside their own country. The kind of "us and them" mentality we've seen in recent debates about privacy and security is an anachronism, a work of fiction based on romantic notions from a different time and place. The key difference between political vs. financial influences reigning in that mentality is that the established ruling class in each "us" group can still exert considerable control over the political landscape, but the financial landscape is shaped by reality and has therefore adapted faster to modern life. You can spin your surveys showing that 99.97% of $YOUR_COUNTRY's citizens have no problem with $ABUSE, but if the reality is that the abuse is unpleasant and people don't like it, the money is still going to show it. Ask anyone in the air travel industry who has the option of using various controversial security measures or not.
- untog 13y ago
  Oh, sure. But they can't legally compel foreign companies to give them data.
bulatb 13y ago
"Those companies are full of hipster kids with fancy Ivy League degrees, spoiled with perks and massive salaries, making useless products that are scary because your kids understand them and you don't. They're coldly taking steady jobs in manufacturing, retail, and service just so Google can install another ball bit. The NSA has put them in their place and now they're whining. And don't forget, these programs keep you safe." People will believe whatever spin fits better with their pre-existing point of view.

by flyt 13y ago

derefr 13y ago

That's beautiful. Now do company-sponsored/pre-tax health insurance coverage!

jrockway 13y ago

Can't the NSA spy on foreign operations without any legal oversight, as opposed to spying on domestic operations with "oversight" from a secret court? Both are bad.

glesica 13y ago
Since all of the companies fingered as cooperating actively with PRISM were American companies, the assumption is that while the NSA may spy on foreign companies those companies are not actively cooperating with the NSA and it is therefore (in theory, I suppose) harder for the NSA to get at their data.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Can't the NSA spy on foreign operations without any legal oversight Yeah. It would be kind of bizarre to have a military signals intelligence service where spying on foreign electronic communications was some kind of exceptional activity. The whole point of the NSA is spying on foreign operations. The legal restrictions involving a "secret court" (the two courts themselves aren't secret, though their proceedings tend to be) for oversight are to prevent the abuse of the "foreign intelligence" excuse as a backdoor for blanket domestic surveillance. Or at least, that was the original purpose of FISA after exactly that kind of abuse. With various "War on Terror" era changes, its arguable that the purpose of the oversight has been reversed so that it now serves as a form of legal cover for the abuse of the "foreign intelligence" excuse as a backdoor for blanket domestic surveillance.
- Silhouette 13y ago
  Yeah. It would be kind of bizarre to have a military signals intelligence service where spying on foreign electronic communications was some kind of exceptional activity. And then international travel became a routine occurrence, and countries made "alliances", and international commerce became one of the most powerful forces driving the global economy, and the Internet arrived, and the kind of black and white world you're imagining went away. No country exists in such a vacuum in the twenty-first century, and a country that respects the basic rights of its own people but completely ignores the rights of others will pay a price for that hostility sooner or later. At least today that price is mostly measured in dollars and not blood as it might have been a few decades ago. It's sad that a lot of the abuses we've seen and heard about in recent years have to be curtailed through financial pressure and not politicians doing the right thing, but that doesn't make people voting with their wallets any less effective.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty; relations between nations remain stuck in a place very close to the Hobbesian state of nature. Insofar as this is a problem to solve, the solution is popularly accountable governments with broader geographic scope than existing nation-states. Note, however, that, there's not much movement in this direction (EU expansion is pretty much it) anywhere in the world, and some movement in the other direction.
    - Silhouette 13y ago
      Travel doesn't really change things. The issue is sovereignty I don't know how meaningful "sovereignty" is any more, though. We live in very literally a global community today. People visit each other's countries for work and pleasure, some for a short time, some making a relatively permanent move. Even without physical presence, in the age of the Internet and easy international shipping, everyone's economy depends deeply on those outside their own country. The kind of "us and them" mentality we've seen in recent debates about privacy and security is an anachronism, a work of fiction based on romantic notions from a different time and place. The key difference between political vs. financial influences reigning in that mentality is that the established ruling class in each "us" group can still exert considerable control over the political landscape, but the financial landscape is shaped by reality and has therefore adapted faster to modern life. You can spin your surveys showing that 99.97% of $YOUR_COUNTRY's citizens have no problem with $ABUSE, but if the reality is that the abuse is unpleasant and people don't like it, the money is still going to show it. Ask anyone in the air travel industry who has the option of using various controversial security measures or not.
untog 13y ago
Oh, sure. But they can't legally compel foreign companies to give them data.

bulatb 13y ago

"Those companies are full of hipster kids with fancy Ivy League degrees, spoiled with perks and massive salaries, making useless products that are scary because your kids understand them and you don't. They're coldly taking steady jobs in manufacturing, retail, and service just so Google can install another ball bit. The NSA has put them in their place and now they're whining. And don't forget, these programs keep you safe." People will believe whatever spin fits better with their pre-existing point of view.