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Medieval torture is a bad example because it was done with the intent of causing pain. This is not. Source? The article just said they wanted to see if they ca

Medieval torture is a bad example because it was done with the intent of causing pain. This is not. Source? The article just said they wanted to see if they can do it. Namely, to create a negative, fake memory. it's the best tool we have. Once we get a better tool we'll use it Tool for what, exactly? We know the brain is made up of stuff and that it can be influenced. The question is rather, what of that is even desirable to do. In the article I just see the fascination of playing God, there not even pie in the sky medical applications are mentioned. And personally, I can't think of any. I tried! Let's say someone was sexually abused by red haired people as a kid. That is, they only knew two red haired people, those abused them, and now they have a very strong negative reaction to red haired people. Wouldn't it always be more desirable for them to talk about this stuff and work through it, than just their association with red hair being "reset"? [I'm simply assuming that if you can make benign memory bad, it's only a matter of time until we try making a bad memory benign, or even good] Okay, maybe it should be their choice, I can't tell others what they need to be able to cope with. And my example is very bad, I just couldn't think of a better one; though I am still keen to hear others, let's simply assume there is a really good example, and a great medical use for good.. where there's not so much faking going on, but correcting actual mistakes etc. where intellectually realizing them just doesn't cut it for some reason. As I said, I can't really tell others what they should do or not do, especially since I am not suffering from any crippling anxieties or brain damage. I have only one argument why they should rather go the harder road, which may big payoffs in the way of personal growth, but also may simply not work at all: just like you supposedly can't hypnotize people to do things that goes completely against their moral values, I think it's harder to make someone believe the dog that bit them actually licked their hand with just a bunch of conversations. Yes, people can be brainwashed already, and I guess a bad but trusted therapist could also do a lot of damage; but compared to physically reaching in there and re-arranging things, it's still like muskets to the nuclear bomb. And wether stuff like "Bush Derangement Syndrome" is a real thing, or just a dumb ad-hominem, is actually simply a consensus decision. Medical history, and that of the mind especially, is FULL of people being mis-diagnosed and made to fit. The world has been reeling with power grabs and raising awareness of them for many decades, so to invent such a "tool", even the most simplicistic beginnings of it, "just because", seems just nucking futs to me. That it's "exciting" to the "global neuroscience community" doesn't really cut it for me to get excited, too. "If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable – what then?" -- George Orwell ^ You see, there is only one way to find out, and no way back from it. Any steps towards it needs to be heavily justified. Basically, if you can do it any other way, where volition and dignity remain intact, you have to do it that way. Can you show me what this is good for that's a.) important, and not just "exciting" b.) not possible any other way?

aperrien 13y ago
> Okay, maybe it should be their choice, I can't tell others what they need to be able to cope with. And my example is very bad, Your example is very bad. It should be a basic tenant of humanity that we control ourselves, and we as individuals should be the ones making the choice on if and how we're mentally modifying ourselves. The only time that choice should be put aside is if we are modifying ourselves to be a clear and present danger to others.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Uhm, yeah? I'm not sure why you repeat a subset of the things I said as though you're disagreeing. Also, show me your better example, or anyone's for that matter? Because I see zilch, so even my shitty example is the best yet. The only time that choice should be put aside is if we are modifying ourselves to be a clear and present danger to others. I'd argue the same for drone killings, and it's already violated there. So this basic human tened should exist, but doesn't, not really, not when push comes to shove. So again, I wonder, what possible good use could come of this? I mean, before I can see about dis/agreeing with it, I first would at least like to hear some stuff. So far we have nothing but "it's exciting" from the article, or "it's a tool" in the post I replied to. Not even "it's exciting because", or "it's a tool for". Geez.. I know it's not rocket science, but still, there has to be more than the fact that fake negative memories is what neuroscientists crave. I don't even doubt there are things to be said there, which is why asked for that. Sigh.
ars 13y ago
> Source? The article just said they wanted to see if they can do it. Namely, to create a negative, fake memory. Do you realize how little we know about the brain? Any information we can collect is useful. It may seem minor to you, but considering how little we know everything [that is real] helps.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Considering how much we already know about the human psyche and society, and how little of that is applied because it hurts our ego and profits, that's just the predictable naive response that could be said about anything. We also know very little about humanity coping with global nuclear war, so why not simply fire off a few nukes? "everything helps"? I say thinking comes first, then poking around in the brains of creatures that can't defend themselves. If it's that important, why not do it on volunteering humans? If it has to be fucking around with mice, why not make them like a location a lot? Why create fear? Because it's easier? Or hey who cares, it's mice, bred en masse for whatever? You know, mice may seem minor to you, but they're basically persons just like everyone. There are arguments for some medical experiments, but I still haven't heard one for this. You just said it yourself, "everything helps". So why this? If anything else would help as well, and you can't even tell me what it would help for, other than temporarily satisfying some kind of inferiority complex about not being omniscient? And do you realize that it's the brain we're talking about? You know, just because something is there and can potentially be fully understood and manipulated, doesn't mean we should get to do that with it... I'm not sure everybody is on the same page though. But I know everybody including me is a hypocrite. Just take free will. The idea that there likely is no such thing is a LOT older than neuroscience (even Nietzsche said that the idea is only still around because every now and then someone digs it up to disprove it haha). Yet we kinda ignore that because you know what? Life is pointless and no fun that way. So yeah, everything helps when it's mice, or someone else's brain, but we reserve the right to tell science to back off from how we'd prefer to view ourselves, don't we. And sometimes for good reason, but that can't be answered by just "is it doable". Just like "should it be made doable?" can't be answered by just "does it exist?". I mean, before we at least got to hear about all sorts of diseases that maybe might be positively affected by X or Y, but now it's really nothing more than "but think of the brain!!!1"? If that is true, wow. I'm not going to take your word for it, but just in case, wow.

aperrien 13y ago

> Okay, maybe it should be their choice, I can't tell others what they need to be able to cope with. And my example is very bad, Your example is very bad. It should be a basic tenant of humanity that we control ourselves, and we as individuals should be the ones making the choice on if and how we're mentally modifying ourselves. The only time that choice should be put aside is if we are modifying ourselves to be a clear and present danger to others.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Uhm, yeah? I'm not sure why you repeat a subset of the things I said as though you're disagreeing. Also, show me your better example, or anyone's for that matter? Because I see zilch, so even my shitty example is the best yet. The only time that choice should be put aside is if we are modifying ourselves to be a clear and present danger to others. I'd argue the same for drone killings, and it's already violated there. So this basic human tened should exist, but doesn't, not really, not when push comes to shove. So again, I wonder, what possible good use could come of this? I mean, before I can see about dis/agreeing with it, I first would at least like to hear some stuff. So far we have nothing but "it's exciting" from the article, or "it's a tool" in the post I replied to. Not even "it's exciting because", or "it's a tool for". Geez.. I know it's not rocket science, but still, there has to be more than the fact that fake negative memories is what neuroscientists crave. I don't even doubt there are things to be said there, which is why asked for that. Sigh.

ars 13y ago

> Source? The article just said they wanted to see if they can do it. Namely, to create a negative, fake memory. Do you realize how little we know about the brain? Any information we can collect is useful. It may seem minor to you, but considering how little we know everything [that is real] helps.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Considering how much we already know about the human psyche and society, and how little of that is applied because it hurts our ego and profits, that's just the predictable naive response that could be said about anything. We also know very little about humanity coping with global nuclear war, so why not simply fire off a few nukes? "everything helps"? I say thinking comes first, then poking around in the brains of creatures that can't defend themselves. If it's that important, why not do it on volunteering humans? If it has to be fucking around with mice, why not make them like a location a lot? Why create fear? Because it's easier? Or hey who cares, it's mice, bred en masse for whatever? You know, mice may seem minor to you, but they're basically persons just like everyone. There are arguments for some medical experiments, but I still haven't heard one for this. You just said it yourself, "everything helps". So why this? If anything else would help as well, and you can't even tell me what it would help for, other than temporarily satisfying some kind of inferiority complex about not being omniscient? And do you realize that it's the brain we're talking about? You know, just because something is there and can potentially be fully understood and manipulated, doesn't mean we should get to do that with it... I'm not sure everybody is on the same page though. But I know everybody including me is a hypocrite. Just take free will. The idea that there likely is no such thing is a LOT older than neuroscience (even Nietzsche said that the idea is only still around because every now and then someone digs it up to disprove it haha). Yet we kinda ignore that because you know what? Life is pointless and no fun that way. So yeah, everything helps when it's mice, or someone else's brain, but we reserve the right to tell science to back off from how we'd prefer to view ourselves, don't we. And sometimes for good reason, but that can't be answered by just "is it doable". Just like "should it be made doable?" can't be answered by just "does it exist?". I mean, before we at least got to hear about all sorts of diseases that maybe might be positively affected by X or Y, but now it's really nothing more than "but think of the brain!!!1"? If that is true, wow. I'm not going to take your word for it, but just in case, wow.