4 ms·

Dinosaur. We're moving towards minimal formatting, and web-based solutions (like Google Docs). The ones who need typesetting are stuck with LaTeX anyway.

Silhouette 13y ago
We're moving towards minimal formatting, and web-based solutions (like Google Docs). You might be. Some of us have been moving back the other way, after discovering that doing real work using children's toys instead of grown-up tools is inefficient and frequently produces substandard results. People have written entire books specifically on how to present information effectively, on top of a vast body of knowledge about graphic design, typography, and the like. The fact that a typical web-based word processor today offers only trivial formatting tools doesn't invalidate all of that previous experience and understanding; it just means that a typical web-based word processor today isn't very good at producing well-presented documents.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > The fact that a typical web-based word processor today offers only trivial formatting tools doesn't invalidate all of that previous experience and understanding; it just means that a typical web-based word processor today isn't very good at producing well-presented documents. Or it could be that for many people, "good enough" is good enough; they simply don't care about the incremental benefits of "well-presented documents" enough to abandon the convenience of Web-based word processors. It's sort of like the audiophiles who love vinyl record albums and vacuum-tube amplifiers but can only listen in their sound rooms, versus the iPhone users who can take their 10,000 songs everywhere they go.
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    Or it could be that for many people, "good enough" is good enough I don't think there's any "could" about it. What you said is certainly true, and a huge proportion of the most successful web apps have been built on that premise, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean those who still need or want something of higher quality are dinosaurs who are somehow being left behind the times. While I understand your music analogy, I don't think the relative differences in quality and flexibility are very similar at all in the two cases.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Yeah, just like people replaced their pc with a tablet that can only do 1percent of what a pc does but still live with it. That does not mean there is no need for PCs anymore.
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > doing real work using children's toys instead of grown-up tools is inefficient and frequently produces substandard results. While I agree that Google Docs are a joke, the damage done by clueless users with Office that could be avoided by taking away all possibilities of custom formatting is not to be underestimated. I'm mainly talking about captioning images by aligning the following line at its center and creating headlines by formatting a line very big. God, how I hate these people.
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    Company templates provided and enforced? Works for us, except the template mistress insists on using large format logos...
rimantas 13y ago
I use Google Docs, but I dislike them. The worst part is, that this dislike is pretty much irrational—Google Docs just seem extremely fragile to me. I don't know why I get this feeling but it is there and I am not sure I will ever trust any non-trivial documents editin within web browser. Are there other feeling the same way? Maybe you have some idea why do I have this kind of mistrust?
- caf 13y ago
  It's probably because you know a little too much about how the sausage is made.
- YZF 13y ago
  I feel the same way. Dislike. It just never seems to do what you want it to do and things don't quite interoperate. In a previous life I could draw something in Visio and copy paste that into e-mail (Outlook), make a graph in Excel and copy that as well. Communicate; you know. In gmail you can try inserting an image but more often than not it comes out as gibberish and forget about any other form of interop. There's no reason why you couldn't do everything within a browser but we don't seem to quite be there yet.
- artagnon 13y ago
  Feature-wise, Google Docs hasn't caught up with these Office applications; no doubt about that. However, there's nothing wrong with it objectively: plenty of people use it quite happily, and it has no serious deficiencies. In short, I think your mistrust arises purely from familiarity with the desktop solution; don't let it cloud your judgement, because I really don't think these dinosaurs have a future.
keithpeter 13y ago
I think there are quite a few users who need a local Office package storing files on their computer. Shonky internet connections, local distribution of templates, control over documents &c. I agree this may be a shrinking number of people, aligned with the PC/Laptop numbers I imagine. LaTeX is great, but the skill set required in use is high. I find sending people a document in LO/oOo is easier for them to change &c.

Silhouette 13y ago

We're moving towards minimal formatting, and web-based solutions (like Google Docs). You might be. Some of us have been moving back the other way, after discovering that doing real work using children's toys instead of grown-up tools is inefficient and frequently produces substandard results. People have written entire books specifically on how to present information effectively, on top of a vast body of knowledge about graphic design, typography, and the like. The fact that a typical web-based word processor today offers only trivial formatting tools doesn't invalidate all of that previous experience and understanding; it just means that a typical web-based word processor today isn't very good at producing well-presented documents.

dctoedt 13y ago
> The fact that a typical web-based word processor today offers only trivial formatting tools doesn't invalidate all of that previous experience and understanding; it just means that a typical web-based word processor today isn't very good at producing well-presented documents. Or it could be that for many people, "good enough" is good enough; they simply don't care about the incremental benefits of "well-presented documents" enough to abandon the convenience of Web-based word processors. It's sort of like the audiophiles who love vinyl record albums and vacuum-tube amplifiers but can only listen in their sound rooms, versus the iPhone users who can take their 10,000 songs everywhere they go.
- Silhouette 13y ago
  Or it could be that for many people, "good enough" is good enough I don't think there's any "could" about it. What you said is certainly true, and a huge proportion of the most successful web apps have been built on that premise, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean those who still need or want something of higher quality are dinosaurs who are somehow being left behind the times. While I understand your music analogy, I don't think the relative differences in quality and flexibility are very similar at all in the two cases.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Yeah, just like people replaced their pc with a tablet that can only do 1percent of what a pc does but still live with it. That does not mean there is no need for PCs anymore.
_pmf_ 13y ago
> doing real work using children's toys instead of grown-up tools is inefficient and frequently produces substandard results. While I agree that Google Docs are a joke, the damage done by clueless users with Office that could be avoided by taking away all possibilities of custom formatting is not to be underestimated. I'm mainly talking about captioning images by aligning the following line at its center and creating headlines by formatting a line very big. God, how I hate these people.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Company templates provided and enforced? Works for us, except the template mistress insists on using large format logos...

rimantas 13y ago

I use Google Docs, but I dislike them. The worst part is, that this dislike is pretty much irrational—Google Docs just seem extremely fragile to me. I don't know why I get this feeling but it is there and I am not sure I will ever trust any non-trivial documents editin within web browser. Are there other feeling the same way? Maybe you have some idea why do I have this kind of mistrust?

caf 13y ago
It's probably because you know a little too much about how the sausage is made.
YZF 13y ago
I feel the same way. Dislike. It just never seems to do what you want it to do and things don't quite interoperate. In a previous life I could draw something in Visio and copy paste that into e-mail (Outlook), make a graph in Excel and copy that as well. Communicate; you know. In gmail you can try inserting an image but more often than not it comes out as gibberish and forget about any other form of interop. There's no reason why you couldn't do everything within a browser but we don't seem to quite be there yet.
artagnon 13y ago
Feature-wise, Google Docs hasn't caught up with these Office applications; no doubt about that. However, there's nothing wrong with it objectively: plenty of people use it quite happily, and it has no serious deficiencies. In short, I think your mistrust arises purely from familiarity with the desktop solution; don't let it cloud your judgement, because I really don't think these dinosaurs have a future.

keithpeter 13y ago

I think there are quite a few users who need a local Office package storing files on their computer. Shonky internet connections, local distribution of templates, control over documents &c. I agree this may be a shrinking number of people, aligned with the PC/Laptop numbers I imagine. LaTeX is great, but the skill set required in use is high. I find sending people a document in LO/oOo is easier for them to change &c.