7 ms·

(disclaimer: im a farmer) GM food isnt toxic but GM food company lawyers are. the article mentions being sued as a result of cross-pollination in the intro and

by dreen 13y ago

(disclaimer: im a farmer) GM food isnt toxic but GM food company lawyers are. the article mentions being sued as a result of cross-pollination in the intro and never speaks of it again, but thats the real GM crop threat.

quadlock 13y ago
It speaks of it in the final paragraph, referring to it as popular mythology.
criley2 13y ago
Can you name any cases at all where farmers were sued for cross-polination claims? As a farmer in the industry, this shouldn't be hard, right? There is one notable example where a farmer intentionally and willfully planted seeds that he knew were Monsantos, but I'm unaware of any pattern of litigation against farmers for the actual unintentional use of Monsanto seed.
- ideonexus 13y ago
  The Organic Seed Growers brought a class action suit against Monsanto for unfairly suing farmers whose crops were cross-pollinated with GMOs. The case was thrown out of court when they failed to produce one example of this ever happening. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B83aJv4L7U-iYzYyMzQxOTktZjY5Mi00MDA1LWE0NjgtNjg2YTgzY2MxMDAy/edit https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B83aJv4L7U-iYzYyMzQxOTktZjY5... Before this case, I believed the "Food Inc." claims about Monsanto being lawsuit-happy. Now I'm angry that it really appears to be the organic farmers who are manipulating the public.
- freehunter 13y ago
  This is one area where I commonly see farmers with this worry being told "yeah but that has never happened!" We worry about a lot of things in computer science that has never happened and may never happen. There's common discussion several times a year on HN about the ethical rights of artificial intelligence or lab-grown brains. It's still important to worry about things that haven't happened and may never happen, if only to ensure that they really do never happen. It's completely plausible that a company could sue over this farmer's fear. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't happen, or that we shouldn't worry about it.
  - hga 13y ago
    I don't think it's "completely" plausible, e.g. look at how much bad press they're getting for unfounded claims of this.
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Bad press doesn't mean everything. Microsoft still reaps profits from undisclosed Linux patents from suits against Android handset makers (although they promised not to sue Linux developers in a previous deal with Novell). Monster Cable still sues small companies for using the word Monster, even though they get a ton of bad press for it. If the financial hit from the bad press is outweighed by the financial gain from whatever is causing that bad press, which do you think a company would pick?
      - hga 13y ago
        Which is why I focused on the sweeping claim of "completely", which is similar to the word "everything".
        freehunter 13y ago
        "Completely", sure. That's too much. "Completely plausible", on the other hand, means something else altogether. Completely plausible means it could conceivably happen. It's entirely within the realm of possibility. Not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. At any rate, I think you and I are in violent agreement and aren't actually disagreeing, so we'll leave it at semantics.
  - kazagistar 13y ago
    It is reasonable to expect a contingency plan. Is there any evidence of people using PRISM-style web scraping to influence politics in their favor? Not really, but that hardly means I trust the status quo.
  - andylei 13y ago
    anybody can sue anybody for anything. it doesn't mean they'll win.
- hga 13y ago
  I just spent some quality time with Google and couldn't find any such case. The closest is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeis... but in that case the facts as found by the court of original jurisdiction were that the farmer selected for Roundup Ready plants that had been accidentally cross-pollinated (in exactly the same way I did this sort of thing with E. Coli in some molecular genetics research long ago), saved the seeds from those plants, and used them to plant 1,000 acres (4 km^2). Per the judge per Wikipedia, "'none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality' ultimately present in Schmeiser's 1998 crop." Wikipedia also says in the summary "Regarding his 1998 crop, Schmeiser did not put forward any defence of accidental contamination." They approached him to sign a license, the two parties couldn't come to an agreement, they took it to court. I don't see this as a valid example of the claim. I also don't see what Monsanto could possibly hope to accomplish at net by suing good faith cross-pollination instances (yeah, they might scare more farmers into buying their seeds, but they'd get slapped down by things like that class action suit others have mentioned with failed due to standing, that is, no examples of this).
- dreen 13y ago
  I never said anyone was sued for having their crops cross-pollinate. However, let me pose these three points about Monsanto to you: 1. They are known to be aggressive in courts. 2. They are simply promising not to sue for cross-pollination. 3. They have been caught lying before. This last one is regarding a herbicide called Roundup, where Monsanto lied to European farmers about its toxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)#Legal_cases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)#Legal_cases). I used it and feel bad about it because I try to keep the surroundings healthy (I dont have any crops though). So if they say "Oh yeah its fine we're not gonna sue you don't worry" it makes me feel sceptical.
  - hga 13y ago
    The Wikipedia article in general and the case you've cited with its links don't support the claim that "Monsanto lied". It sounds like a debatable point, depending on the French definitions of whatever Monsanto actually said in French. If my Cajun mom had taught me French I might look into this further, I think someone who knows it would be required.
- rubinelli 13y ago
  If there was, we won't know for a long time, since gag clauses are extremely common in this kind of settlement.
  - hga 13y ago
    A simple Lexis search of Monsanto Co. v. [wildcard] would still find them. Even if the case was sealed you'd at least know that and where to start looking.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >There is one notable example where a farmer intentionally and willfully planted seeds that he knew were Monsantos The seeds weren't Monsanto's seed. They were harvested crops. It would be more fair to say that Bowman probably knew or had reason to suspect that a large portion of those "junk" seeds were likely descendant of Monsanto's patented herbicide resistant seed, and that he had probably signed a contract previously in which he agreed not to save seeds from his harvest for further planting.
  - justincormack 13y ago
    Indeed. And patenting genes should not be allowed. I have no objections about GM I object to patents on genetic material and the rent seeking behaviour associated with patents.
    - wam 13y ago
      This is what's interesting to me about one argument in favor of GM. On the one hand, the author seems to argue (here and in her books) that GM is merely an extension of what farmers have been doing for ages, and that the type tools and techniques of the work done to change organisms are irrelevant. On the other hand, GM crops are patentable, whereas hybridized crops are not (is this correct?). This is the heart of the economic argument: Farmers can buy the seed or not. But they can't produce it themselves. So the tools and techniques aren't irrelevant. It's certainly _possible_ to have it both ways (as we do now), but this way of parsing the issue seems to me neither economically nor technologically (in the sense of patentability) advantageous to agriculture in the long term. I'd prefer not to get into a situation where the only economically sensible way to produce food is to buy seed from one source. And that's the rational choice for a company like Monsanto: increase shareholder value by becoming the only economical source of seed.
      - hga 13y ago
        Search engines are your friends, the first link I chose from corn plant patent ... reminded? me that plants have been patentable since 1930: Plant Patent Act of 1930, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Patent_Act_of_1930 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Patent_Act_of_1930, in the law as 35 U.S.C. § 161, http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/161 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/161 "Whoever invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state, may obtain a patent therefor..." See lots more e.g. here: http://cookingupastory.com/patent-law-how-patents-grew-over-time-to-include-living-organisms http://cookingupastory.com/patent-law-how-patents-grew-over-...
zsombor 13y ago
Until our fears of GM are blown out of proportion, only a few giga corporations can afford the effort of developing new GM products. That considerable investment ends up being defended by an army of suits. I hope this will eventually change and the current players will suffer the fate IBM had 30 years ago. There are already students breeding new aquarium pets for example at much lower cost.

by dreen 13y ago

quadlock 13y ago

It speaks of it in the final paragraph, referring to it as popular mythology.

criley2 13y ago

Can you name any cases at all where farmers were sued for cross-polination claims? As a farmer in the industry, this shouldn't be hard, right? There is one notable example where a farmer intentionally and willfully planted seeds that he knew were Monsantos, but I'm unaware of any pattern of litigation against farmers for the actual unintentional use of Monsanto seed.

ideonexus 13y ago
The Organic Seed Growers brought a class action suit against Monsanto for unfairly suing farmers whose crops were cross-pollinated with GMOs. The case was thrown out of court when they failed to produce one example of this ever happening. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B83aJv4L7U-iYzYyMzQxOTktZjY5Mi00MDA1LWE0NjgtNjg2YTgzY2MxMDAy/edit https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B83aJv4L7U-iYzYyMzQxOTktZjY5... Before this case, I believed the "Food Inc." claims about Monsanto being lawsuit-happy. Now I'm angry that it really appears to be the organic farmers who are manipulating the public.
freehunter 13y ago
This is one area where I commonly see farmers with this worry being told "yeah but that has never happened!" We worry about a lot of things in computer science that has never happened and may never happen. There's common discussion several times a year on HN about the ethical rights of artificial intelligence or lab-grown brains. It's still important to worry about things that haven't happened and may never happen, if only to ensure that they really do never happen. It's completely plausible that a company could sue over this farmer's fear. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't happen, or that we shouldn't worry about it.
- hga 13y ago
  I don't think it's "completely" plausible, e.g. look at how much bad press they're getting for unfounded claims of this.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Bad press doesn't mean everything. Microsoft still reaps profits from undisclosed Linux patents from suits against Android handset makers (although they promised not to sue Linux developers in a previous deal with Novell). Monster Cable still sues small companies for using the word Monster, even though they get a ton of bad press for it. If the financial hit from the bad press is outweighed by the financial gain from whatever is causing that bad press, which do you think a company would pick?
    - hga 13y ago
      Which is why I focused on the sweeping claim of "completely", which is similar to the word "everything".
      - freehunter 13y ago
        "Completely", sure. That's too much. "Completely plausible", on the other hand, means something else altogether. Completely plausible means it could conceivably happen. It's entirely within the realm of possibility. Not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. At any rate, I think you and I are in violent agreement and aren't actually disagreeing, so we'll leave it at semantics.
- kazagistar 13y ago
  It is reasonable to expect a contingency plan. Is there any evidence of people using PRISM-style web scraping to influence politics in their favor? Not really, but that hardly means I trust the status quo.
- andylei 13y ago
  anybody can sue anybody for anything. it doesn't mean they'll win.
hga 13y ago
I just spent some quality time with Google and couldn't find any such case. The closest is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeis... but in that case the facts as found by the court of original jurisdiction were that the farmer selected for Roundup Ready plants that had been accidentally cross-pollinated (in exactly the same way I did this sort of thing with E. Coli in some molecular genetics research long ago), saved the seeds from those plants, and used them to plant 1,000 acres (4 km^2). Per the judge per Wikipedia, "'none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality' ultimately present in Schmeiser's 1998 crop." Wikipedia also says in the summary "Regarding his 1998 crop, Schmeiser did not put forward any defence of accidental contamination." They approached him to sign a license, the two parties couldn't come to an agreement, they took it to court. I don't see this as a valid example of the claim. I also don't see what Monsanto could possibly hope to accomplish at net by suing good faith cross-pollination instances (yeah, they might scare more farmers into buying their seeds, but they'd get slapped down by things like that class action suit others have mentioned with failed due to standing, that is, no examples of this).
dreen 13y ago
I never said anyone was sued for having their crops cross-pollinate. However, let me pose these three points about Monsanto to you: 1. They are known to be aggressive in courts. 2. They are simply promising not to sue for cross-pollination. 3. They have been caught lying before. This last one is regarding a herbicide called Roundup, where Monsanto lied to European farmers about its toxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)#Legal_cases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)#Legal_cases). I used it and feel bad about it because I try to keep the surroundings healthy (I dont have any crops though). So if they say "Oh yeah its fine we're not gonna sue you don't worry" it makes me feel sceptical.
- hga 13y ago
  The Wikipedia article in general and the case you've cited with its links don't support the claim that "Monsanto lied". It sounds like a debatable point, depending on the French definitions of whatever Monsanto actually said in French. If my Cajun mom had taught me French I might look into this further, I think someone who knows it would be required.
rubinelli 13y ago
If there was, we won't know for a long time, since gag clauses are extremely common in this kind of settlement.
- hga 13y ago
  A simple Lexis search of Monsanto Co. v. [wildcard] would still find them. Even if the case was sealed you'd at least know that and where to start looking.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>There is one notable example where a farmer intentionally and willfully planted seeds that he knew were Monsantos The seeds weren't Monsanto's seed. They were harvested crops. It would be more fair to say that Bowman probably knew or had reason to suspect that a large portion of those "junk" seeds were likely descendant of Monsanto's patented herbicide resistant seed, and that he had probably signed a contract previously in which he agreed not to save seeds from his harvest for further planting.
- justincormack 13y ago
  Indeed. And patenting genes should not be allowed. I have no objections about GM I object to patents on genetic material and the rent seeking behaviour associated with patents.
  - wam 13y ago
    This is what's interesting to me about one argument in favor of GM. On the one hand, the author seems to argue (here and in her books) that GM is merely an extension of what farmers have been doing for ages, and that the type tools and techniques of the work done to change organisms are irrelevant. On the other hand, GM crops are patentable, whereas hybridized crops are not (is this correct?). This is the heart of the economic argument: Farmers can buy the seed or not. But they can't produce it themselves. So the tools and techniques aren't irrelevant. It's certainly _possible_ to have it both ways (as we do now), but this way of parsing the issue seems to me neither economically nor technologically (in the sense of patentability) advantageous to agriculture in the long term. I'd prefer not to get into a situation where the only economically sensible way to produce food is to buy seed from one source. And that's the rational choice for a company like Monsanto: increase shareholder value by becoming the only economical source of seed.
    - hga 13y ago
      Search engines are your friends, the first link I chose from corn plant patent ... reminded? me that plants have been patentable since 1930: Plant Patent Act of 1930, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Patent_Act_of_1930 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Patent_Act_of_1930, in the law as 35 U.S.C. § 161, http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/161 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/161 "Whoever invents or discovers and asexually reproduces any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state, may obtain a patent therefor..." See lots more e.g. here: http://cookingupastory.com/patent-law-how-patents-grew-over-time-to-include-living-organisms http://cookingupastory.com/patent-law-how-patents-grew-over-...

zsombor 13y ago

Until our fears of GM are blown out of proportion, only a few giga corporations can afford the effort of developing new GM products. That considerable investment ends up being defended by an army of suits. I hope this will eventually change and the current players will suffer the fate IBM had 30 years ago. There are already students breeding new aquarium pets for example at much lower cost.