10 ms·
Defund the NSA - This Isn't Over
- pvnick 13y agoThis is great! A followup contact, either praise or criticism, is like Pavlovian conditioning for our representatives. I'm happy to say I was able to give positive reinforcement to my congressman. Forgive me if I'm mixing up my theories, I haven't taken a psychology class in several years. Also, great job to Sina and the taskforce!
- sinak 13y agoThanks! And as always, anyone who wants to help create things like this can sign up at http://sina.is/task-force/ http://sina.is/task-force/ We particularly need some extra designers to help out, but the more the merrier.
- iwasanewt 13y agoWhat you're talking about is operant conditioning ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning )
- potatoman2 13y agoI'm a trifle pessimistic over the chances of this ever succeeding.
- pvnick 13y agoDid you not see the vote spread yesterday? Twelve vote difference. That's incredible, and this is only the beginning. Also remember, there are still leaks to come, we've only seen a glimpse of the full scope of the revelations.
- haakon 13y agoMy understanding is that even if it had passed with flying colours, Obama would have vetoed it. So all of this process is just for show.
- ctdonath 13y agoIf it had passed with flying colors, pressure on the Obama to not veto it would be tremendous.
- sillysaurus 13y agoHe's already been reelected, so he doesn't care what the general public thinks of him.
- ctdonath 13y agoTrue that he doesn't care per se, but as I doubt he's going to quietly retire to a Hawaiian villa in 3.5 years, he does have to gauge who thinks what of this presumably unexpected issue & backlash.
- selter01 13y agoWell, I want it to get to that. I want it to be on Obama's desk and see what happens. I prefer that to just sitting around.
- ambientwhsiper 13y agoSo young, so naive. You still believe in that "hope and change", don't ya?
- JshWright 13y agoYour understanding is incorrect. This was an amendment to the NDAA. Basically the bill that Congress has to pass every year to authorize the government to maintain a standing army, and fund said army. Without the NDAA, our military would effectively cease to exist. It would be impossible for President Obama to veto it.
- timdiggerm 13y agoOh so weird riders for special interest causes are okay now?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jasonkolb 13y agoI think this could get legs. Are there any other like this issues where the government is blatantly thumbing its nose at its own people? I'm running a survey right now and one of the elements is support for the NSA surveillance, and almost nobody supports it. Like, 85% just say it's flat-out wrong.
- gknoy 13y agoSurveys are heavily influenced by the way you are asking questions. "Should the NSA be able to snoop all of our email/phone/etc records, and store them for later?" --> NO "Should the government be able to expand its limited search capabilities so that it can better prevent terrorist attacks?" --> WELL SURE That was a terrible example of a second way of phrasing it, but I am certain there is a way to frame what they are doing in a way which leaves out the "collect all your things" nuance (;)) and therefore will sound reasonable to many people. In the general case you will find that answers tend to trend in this way: NO: "Should the gov't ${trample_our_freedoms}?" YES: "Should the gov't ${catch_more_terrorists}|${protect_more_children}?"
- jasonkolb 13y agoI agree, that's why we tried to phrase it neutrally: "Does the NSA surveillance of US citizens concern you? " Yes/No/I don't know/No, I don't have anything to hide/No, it's necessary to keep us safe?" It's not intended to produce a specific outcome, we want some genuinely good data :) If you want to check it out and look at the results it's here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QBvTRxDQXmALhYqZMn7S3T_DBq8GRvjVwRZRY-G2zuE/viewform https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QBvTRxDQXmALhYqZMn7S3T_DBq8...
- bostonpete 13y agoWhich of those responses are you interpreting as "it's flat out wrong" as you put it? I think there's a lot of space between having concerns about something and being vehemently opposed to it.
- rayiner 13y ago
- ctdonath 13y agoA near-even split on the first try over a high-stakes issue is a pretty darned good showing. Lay into those supportive of the state violating every semblance of privacy, and then try again.
- diminoten 13y agoI said this before, but the closeness of the vote has nothing to do with how close the vote actually was. Once the whips figure out if a bill is going to pass or not, they then let people vote however will get them more money.
- bargl 13y agoI'm curious how whips work. Do you have anything I could read up on it to learn more? It makes sense from a certain perspective, but does that mean that they decided to look into how many people were going to vote no for sure (which was 217). Then the remaining legislators would get more money if they voted yes (205) or maybe they voted yes because it was what their constituents wanted. That's all speculation but it's seriously interesting and very disturbing.
- diminoten 13y agoOnce you know a vote isn't going to happen, the voting gets rearranged to look good. Since the outcome is the same, it doesn't really matter how the outcome happens, so long as the 'yes' or the 'no' is still a 'yes' or 'no'. And it's probably one of the least improper things that happens in US government. I'd also like to take a moment to explain why this vote doesn't have a chance, ever, and it's the exact same reason all spending cuts to defense don't generally go through - all it takes is one bad thing to happen, and suddenly every single person who voted to reduce defense spending/the NSA budget is at risk in their district. It's the easiest attack ad in the world to construct: "My opponent was one of the people who took away the NSA's power to defend this country, and as a result we were attacked again!" That's a guaranteed and immediate hit that's very easy to understand. What's much more complicated is the 'yes' argument. It's nuanced, confusing, many constituents don't even want it, and in general a big risk. The biggest win for members of congress is if no change actually happens, and yet they still get to have a voting record that shows they're against what the NSA is doing (exactly how it turned out). Those "yes" votes were probably pretty damn expensive for the congresspeople who got them, but they'd be HUGE liabilities if the vote actually passed. In other words, 'yes' votes were worth more if the 'yes' lost.
- evykoala 13y agoI called both of mine (FL), one voted one way and the other the other. Do I thank the one, and what would I say to the other?
- jdp23 13y agoGood job calling! And yes, call both again - with thanks (it shows you really care and are paying attention), and with disappointment, asking why they voted the way they did, letting them know this may influence your vote in the primary and general election, and recommendations about what they should read to get a different perspective when the next vote comes up.
- mzs 13y agoWhat's the list of stuff they could read? Thanks
- joelg236 13y agoNot sure who would know how to fix this, but the tweet button only puts half[1] of the message in. (URL maybe too long) [1] - http://imgur.com/z7JDuXV http://imgur.com/z7JDuXV
- FridayWithJohn 13y agoweird, it worked fine for me. Try to just manually add it. The positive Tweet was "Thank you for supporting #privacy! You're earning my vote, keep up the good work! #defundNSA http://defundthensa.com/" http://defundthensa.com/" while the negative Tweet was: "It's shameful that you voted for unconstitutional record collection instead of #privacy! #defundNSA http://defundthensa.com/" http://defundthensa.com/"
- thinkbohemian 13y agoIdea: pre-prepared websites that call to attention representatives that are against privacy (voted for SOPA, the NSA, TSA, etc.) make them available to deploy on heroku, github, s3, whatever. Then developers in support of privacy can litter the internet with them come election time. If all these guys care about is getting re-elected, lets make it clear not supporting their constituents will seriously damage their chances. Also love the followup idea.
- diminoten 13y agoWhat makes you think they're not supporting their constituents?
- drcube 13y agoBecause they support spying on them. That's kind of the opposite of supporting them.
- diminoten 13y agoYou should pay more attention to polls - it's not quite the landslide you're implying it is. Many people are okay with being spied on.
- drcube 13y agoThis is why we have morals. So we don't have to conduct opinion polls to see what's right and wrong. Plenty of atrocious things were wildly popular. They get absolutely zero extra legitimacy for being so.
- diminoten 13y agoDo you believe your moral compass to be perfect, or is it flawed? In the event that you think it's flawed, how do you recommend making sure your flawed moral compass isn't going to cause something immoral to happen?
- wtvanhest 13y agoWhat is going on with the photo of Judy Chu and the guy below her? I'm referencing the duct tape.
- evanm 13y agoThe NSA spying program is horrible, yes. And I think it should be halted immediately. But we need the NSA—they do important things for this country despite the bad clout they've received because of this one domestic program. That program is minuscule in size compared to the sum of the important operations that are conducted in the agency. I want to make myself clear. I think the domestic intercepts are 100% wrong and unconstitutional. That needs to stop. But that agency is home to smart people who do other necessary work to protect us.
- 3327 13y agodomestic spying NO Foreign spying and intel gathering YES
- dlitz 13y agoDespite the catchy slogan, this isn't actually about defunding the entire NSA.
- matchu 13y agoFor reference, here's the text of the amendment: http://amendments-rules.house.gov/amendments/AMASH_018_xml2718131717181718.pdf http://amendments-rules.house.gov/amendments/AMASH_018_xml27... It short, it defunds the NSA's ability to conduct surveillance on people who are not being investigated.
- 00rion 13y agoCould you list some things they do to protect us so that we all have a better understanding? I feel that their aim would be to collect non-domestic information that could be used to push US interests. Is that really a positive thing?
- mattmanser 13y agoBroken on Chrome/Win 7. EDIT: Whoops, it's Adblock Plus on Chrome. For some reason it gets rid of most of the site.
- mtgx 13y agoMight as well add this one to the criticism sent to your representative: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/senate-bill-authorizes-sanctions-on-russia-or-any-other-country-offering-snowden-asylum/2013/07/25/feaaf55e-f53c-11e2-81fa-8e83b3864c36_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/senate-bill-...
- Fuzzwah 13y agoGreat site. I was able to research and find that Congresswoman Kyrsten Sinema, serving Arizona's 9th District was cosponsor of the Amash bill but voted against the amendment, stating that it "has an unintended consequence". Her press release is full of wonderful contradictions and weasel words: http://sinema.house.gov/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=b23deeab-d42e-4a22-808c-787ef7190761 http://sinema.house.gov/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=b23deeab... From: “I have very real concerns about the federal government’s action and lack of transparency regarding the collection and retention of law-abiding Americans’ private information. " Straight to: "I believe that we must work toward less intrusive methods to ensure our security. The broad language we considered today could have limited the ability of our national security and law enforcement community to prevent the bombing plot against the New York subway system or to quickly respond to events like the Boston bombing." Wrapping it all up with: "There are other ways than the invasive collection of metadata to ensure the security of Americans while protecting our precious 4th Amendment rights.” Ok... so there are other ways, gotcha.... but you don't vote for an amendment which would have forced the NSA into using / finding other ways. Cool. Edit: I give her props for responding to my tweet though: https://twitter.com/fuzzywah/status/360441317609840642 https://twitter.com/fuzzywah/status/360441317609840642
- tieTYT 13y agoHere's what I want: A link that I can click on that will add a google calendar event to notify me with the list of representatives to vote AGAINST when voting season comes. I'm pissed now, but like all americans, I'll probably forget about this come election.
- cinquemb 13y agoThat is a good idea. Yesterday in irc, we could only think of trying to get people to confront their local reps in their offices. I'll pass this along. Edit: If anyone knows any place to programmatically get (r)election dates for districts, please tell us here: https://github.com/tfrce/DefundTheNSA/issues/14 https://github.com/tfrce/DefundTheNSA/issues/14
- toomuchtodo 13y agoAlso, remind me to donate heavily to their competitor if they voted against.
- na85 13y ago>irc Which channel/network?
- cinquemb 13y ago##rritf/freenode, but I don't know if anyone is there now.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- qwatsi13579 13y agoI don't think you're allowed to vote for those outside your district/state.
- tieTYT 13y agoI know. If you go to the link, the first thing it asks is for your zip code to give you a list of your representatives. The reminder would contain that list.
- tvtime15 13y agoWWRPD?
- btbuildem 13y agoFYI, you're missing the congresspeople who abstained.
- beaugunderson 13y agoVery good point--abstentions and absences should also be listed.
- chinpokomon 13y agoHad those who abstained voted yes, it would have been a tie. It would have still failed to pass because the WH would have the final say, but I'm encouraged that it was as close as it was.
- giardini 13y agoAstonishingly page doesn't work in Opera. And why all the effort in a "defund NSA" site to find out as much as possible about visitors (e-mail, zip code) and link them to Facebook, Twitter and Google, the second-tier sinners in this scandal? Just provide good information at a pre-defined URL - I'll get around to it if I want to.
- beaugunderson 13y agoWe will definitely test in Opera going forward--thank you for reporting that it doesn't work. We are trying to figure out how to best spread a message while still being privacy-conscious. One possible idea is to put the sharing functionality on a second page, thus allowing people who want to share to do so but not loading scripts for people just visiting for the first time. Another is to load sharing scripts on the same page asynchronously only if people click a 'Tweet my legislator!' button--that's how the current site would work if there were not the three social buttons at the bottom of the page. We'll also be dropping Google Analytics for Piwik (which is self-hosted) soon.
- beaugunderson 13y agoCan you provide more information about what doesn't work in Opera? I just tested it in the current version on OS X and could not find any issues.
- mey 13y agoSource info http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.aspx?day=20130724 It was Roll call #412, the Amash ammendment for Bill H.r. 2397 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr2397 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/113-2013/h412
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- josephby 13y agoToo many secrets.
- JumpCrisscross 13y agoRepresentatives up for election in 2013 [EDIT: 2014] should be flagged. Ones in competitive states should be at the top, with donation links for those who voted Aye. If they voted Nay and their competitor is anti-NSA, their competitor gets a donation link by the incumbent's name.
- dragonwriter 13y ago> Representatives up for election in 2013 should be flagged. That's going to be a pretty short list, as regular elections for all seats of the House of Representatives (and one-third of the seats of the Senate) occur in every even-numbered year. The only House elections in 2013 would be special elections, which would normally be to fill a vacant seat, and thus would not have an incumbent running.
- izx 13y agoanother good link, providing full information about everyone that voted on this, with clickable links to more detailed information about each representative. Makes it easier to get people to pester the appropriate representative. http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/113/house/1/votes/412/ http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/113/house/1/vote...
- AndrewKemendo 13y agoDoes anyone find it ironic that the same folks who are anti-libertarian (not necessarily the HN crowd) and anti-tea party are strident supporters of a tea-party favorite congressman's amendment. The idea that such a group would rally around someone who they would not have voted for, seems strange. I am not sure if I should be proud that a citizenry can see past politics and rally based on substance, or if they are totally out of touch with how politics works.