9 ms·

Did anyone else pick up on all the chemophobia in this video? Is a clip of people spraying DDT supposed to scare us? Rachel Carson was wrong. DDT is safe. My fa

by falk 13y ago

Did anyone else pick up on all the chemophobia in this video? Is a clip of people spraying DDT supposed to scare us? Rachel Carson was wrong. DDT is safe. My favorite part is when they say "food grade FDA compounds". That's a lot of words to say chemicals.

mistercow 13y ago
>DDT is safe. [citation needed]
- qohen 13y ago
  From the World Health Organization (WHO), in 2006: WHO gives indoor use of DDT a clean bill of health for controlling malaria http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ "Extensive research and testing has since demonstrated that well-managed indoor residual spraying programmes using DDT pose no harm to wildlife or to humans"
  - merlincorey 13y ago
    And if you read here: http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm You can find out just how hard it is to have a well managed program. They say it takes a dictator and a fascist to do successfully.
- falk 13y ago
  Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring is credited with starting the anti-DDT movement. It's been discredited and is full of junk science and needless corporation-bashing. Read the paper Chemicals and Pests which tears apart Carson's book. [1] Checkout the New York Times article from 1962 titled "Fateful Voice of a Generation Still Drowns Out Real Science" [2] A choice quote: "Ms. Carson used dubious statistics and anecdotes (like the improbable story of a woman who instantly developed cancer after spraying her basement with DDT) to warn of a cancer epidemic that never came to pass. She rightly noted threats to some birds, like eagles and other raptors, but she wildly imagined a mass “biocide.” She warned that one of the most common American birds, the robin, was “on the verge of extinction” — an especially odd claim given the large numbers of robins recorded in Audubon bird counts before her book." You may also want to check out the story of Professor Kenneth Mellanby who ate DDT for 40 years. [3] Make sure to take a look at the scientific paper mentioned in this Times article. It concludes "DDT is practically harmless to humans who get it on their skins or breathe it into their lungs." [4] [1] http://www1.umn.edu/ships/pesticides/library/baldwin1962.pdf http://www1.umn.edu/ships/pesticides/library/baldwin1962.pdf [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/science/earth/05tier.html?ei=5124&en=14a418afaa8af640&ex=1338782400&adxnnl=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&adxnnlx=1181487827-TjMEg9pHGxi9E4cK+bB4rQ&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/science/earth/05tier.html?... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4264030/DDT-is-safe-just-ask-the-professor-who-ate-it-for-40-years.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4264030/DDT-is-safe-just-... [4] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,812248,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,812248,00.h...
  - mistercow 13y ago
    But the environmental effects regarding birds, as well as the impact of indiscriminate spraying on mosquito resistance to DDT are a far cry from "safe". Regardless of whether Carson was completely right about everything she said, it's silly to claim that DDT is generally safe when it clearly is not.
    - falk 13y ago
      "DDT is generally safe when it clearly is not." I'd love for you to cite your source on that. When used properly DDT is generally safe and has saved millions of lives. There is no arguing that it doesn't do a great job killing mosquitos. Resistance is mostly due to agricultural use. The video claimed we are using chemicals toxic to humans and flashed some footage of DDT being sprayed. That's simply a false assertion on the part of the maker's of the video and the product. They're trying to use junk science to push their product onto naive consumers.
      - mistercow 13y ago
        >I'd love for you to cite your source on that. Do you actually need me to cite my source on the fact that it harms birds and can lead to resistance? I can, if you need me to, but I didn't think those facts were in dispute. The extent of the problem is arguable, but all I'm asserting is that these are measurable effects. There is also evidence that DDT is harmful to humans, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to be significantly more so than a ton of other things that we happily accept. It seems unlikely, for example, that DDT usage at its peak killed more people per year than air pollution from coal power. Anyway, I think your general point is fair and that it was irresponsible to try to scare people away from controlled DDT use on mosquitoes. But I also think it's irresponsible to assert that DDT is safe. It's OK to use solutions that aren't safe if the benefits outweigh the risks.
merlincorey 13y ago
For varying definitions of safe. This is interesting and someone linked it last time DDT came up: http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm
Everlag 13y ago
You know, DDT was actually used in an Albertan Junior High textbook as an example of a horrid chemical that caused cancer and posed serious threat to the health of the world. They reference Carson's book as an example. I saw it before in Social and English but damn, the liberal slant of the system has never been so obvious in the sciences. For a conservative province this is very surprising. It is one thing to be pragmatic and use facts that are just there to be used but cherrypicking data for students to learn and then testing them on it in a subject where it is supposed to be unbiased? Sickening yet fascinating.
- falk 13y ago
  No, I didn't. Interesting. Thanks. Carson's book spurred the environmentalist movement, I'll give her that. I used to think poorly of DDT and GMOs, but then I did some research and changed my opinions. Should we be cautious about spraying chemicals like DDT? Absolutely. But the chemical has saved millions from dying. We don't have anything better yet. Are you from Canada? Because my experience here in the U.S. has been wildly different for the most part. Our textbooks originate from Texas mostly which is very conservative and evangelical. There's an interesting documentary called The Revisionaries which outlines essentially the battle behind textbooks. [1] [2] The chair of the Texas Board of Education believes that dinosaurs and humans coexisted and doesn't believe in evolution. Hell, I don't even remember learning about the Pentagon Papers in high school. [1] http://www.npr.org/2012/06/20/155440679/revisionaries-tells-story-of-texas-textbook-battle http://www.npr.org/2012/06/20/155440679/revisionaries-tells-... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAeKXdLZhOg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAeKXdLZhOg
  - acheron 13y ago
    The Pentagon Papers? My history classes barely got into the 20th century, let alone the 1970s (I graduated in the late '90s). History was not a well-taught subject, and my impression is that recent developments in standardized testing and whatnot has made it even worse. Also, unless you're concentrating on journalism, the Pentagon Papers incident is a rather obscure and unimportant event. I wouldn't be surprised if even a well-taught and comprehensive US history class didn't touch on it.
gabemart 13y ago
>My favorite part is when they say "food grade FDA compounds". That's a lot of words to say chemicals. Food-grade FDA-approved chemicals make up a fairly small subset of chemicals.
jkarni 13y ago
Side note: Looks like the clip was lifted from "Tree of Life".

by falk 13y ago

mistercow 13y ago

>DDT is safe. [citation needed]

qohen 13y ago
From the World Health Organization (WHO), in 2006: WHO gives indoor use of DDT a clean bill of health for controlling malaria http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ "Extensive research and testing has since demonstrated that well-managed indoor residual spraying programmes using DDT pose no harm to wildlife or to humans"
- merlincorey 13y ago
  And if you read here: http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm You can find out just how hard it is to have a well managed program. They say it takes a dictator and a fascist to do successfully.
falk 13y ago
Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring is credited with starting the anti-DDT movement. It's been discredited and is full of junk science and needless corporation-bashing. Read the paper Chemicals and Pests which tears apart Carson's book. [1] Checkout the New York Times article from 1962 titled "Fateful Voice of a Generation Still Drowns Out Real Science" [2] A choice quote: "Ms. Carson used dubious statistics and anecdotes (like the improbable story of a woman who instantly developed cancer after spraying her basement with DDT) to warn of a cancer epidemic that never came to pass. She rightly noted threats to some birds, like eagles and other raptors, but she wildly imagined a mass “biocide.” She warned that one of the most common American birds, the robin, was “on the verge of extinction” — an especially odd claim given the large numbers of robins recorded in Audubon bird counts before her book." You may also want to check out the story of Professor Kenneth Mellanby who ate DDT for 40 years. [3] Make sure to take a look at the scientific paper mentioned in this Times article. It concludes "DDT is practically harmless to humans who get it on their skins or breathe it into their lungs." [4] [1] http://www1.umn.edu/ships/pesticides/library/baldwin1962.pdf http://www1.umn.edu/ships/pesticides/library/baldwin1962.pdf [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/science/earth/05tier.html?ei=5124&en=14a418afaa8af640&ex=1338782400&adxnnl=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&adxnnlx=1181487827-TjMEg9pHGxi9E4cK+bB4rQ&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/science/earth/05tier.html?... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4264030/DDT-is-safe-just-ask-the-professor-who-ate-it-for-40-years.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4264030/DDT-is-safe-just-... [4] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,812248,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,812248,00.h...
- mistercow 13y ago
  But the environmental effects regarding birds, as well as the impact of indiscriminate spraying on mosquito resistance to DDT are a far cry from "safe". Regardless of whether Carson was completely right about everything she said, it's silly to claim that DDT is generally safe when it clearly is not.
  - falk 13y ago
    "DDT is generally safe when it clearly is not." I'd love for you to cite your source on that. When used properly DDT is generally safe and has saved millions of lives. There is no arguing that it doesn't do a great job killing mosquitos. Resistance is mostly due to agricultural use. The video claimed we are using chemicals toxic to humans and flashed some footage of DDT being sprayed. That's simply a false assertion on the part of the maker's of the video and the product. They're trying to use junk science to push their product onto naive consumers.
    - mistercow 13y ago
      >I'd love for you to cite your source on that. Do you actually need me to cite my source on the fact that it harms birds and can lead to resistance? I can, if you need me to, but I didn't think those facts were in dispute. The extent of the problem is arguable, but all I'm asserting is that these are measurable effects. There is also evidence that DDT is harmful to humans, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to be significantly more so than a ton of other things that we happily accept. It seems unlikely, for example, that DDT usage at its peak killed more people per year than air pollution from coal power. Anyway, I think your general point is fair and that it was irresponsible to try to scare people away from controlled DDT use on mosquitoes. But I also think it's irresponsible to assert that DDT is safe. It's OK to use solutions that aren't safe if the benefits outweigh the risks.

merlincorey 13y ago

For varying definitions of safe. This is interesting and someone linked it last time DDT came up: http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_07_02_a_ddt.htm

Everlag 13y ago

You know, DDT was actually used in an Albertan Junior High textbook as an example of a horrid chemical that caused cancer and posed serious threat to the health of the world. They reference Carson's book as an example. I saw it before in Social and English but damn, the liberal slant of the system has never been so obvious in the sciences. For a conservative province this is very surprising. It is one thing to be pragmatic and use facts that are just there to be used but cherrypicking data for students to learn and then testing them on it in a subject where it is supposed to be unbiased? Sickening yet fascinating.

falk 13y ago
No, I didn't. Interesting. Thanks. Carson's book spurred the environmentalist movement, I'll give her that. I used to think poorly of DDT and GMOs, but then I did some research and changed my opinions. Should we be cautious about spraying chemicals like DDT? Absolutely. But the chemical has saved millions from dying. We don't have anything better yet. Are you from Canada? Because my experience here in the U.S. has been wildly different for the most part. Our textbooks originate from Texas mostly which is very conservative and evangelical. There's an interesting documentary called The Revisionaries which outlines essentially the battle behind textbooks. [1] [2] The chair of the Texas Board of Education believes that dinosaurs and humans coexisted and doesn't believe in evolution. Hell, I don't even remember learning about the Pentagon Papers in high school. [1] http://www.npr.org/2012/06/20/155440679/revisionaries-tells-story-of-texas-textbook-battle http://www.npr.org/2012/06/20/155440679/revisionaries-tells-... [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAeKXdLZhOg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAeKXdLZhOg
- acheron 13y ago
  The Pentagon Papers? My history classes barely got into the 20th century, let alone the 1970s (I graduated in the late '90s). History was not a well-taught subject, and my impression is that recent developments in standardized testing and whatnot has made it even worse. Also, unless you're concentrating on journalism, the Pentagon Papers incident is a rather obscure and unimportant event. I wouldn't be surprised if even a well-taught and comprehensive US history class didn't touch on it.

gabemart 13y ago

>My favorite part is when they say "food grade FDA compounds". That's a lot of words to say chemicals. Food-grade FDA-approved chemicals make up a fairly small subset of chemicals.

jkarni 13y ago

Side note: Looks like the clip was lifted from "Tree of Life".