5 ms·

A little bit meta, and to be clear I'm making no assumptions, statements or complaints about here; but it's interesting that this describes the hypothetical jun

A little bit meta, and to be clear I'm making no assumptions, statements or complaints about here; but it's interesting that this describes the hypothetical junior developer as female. In the following line, why would the author not just say their, to include both genders? >> When you hire a junior developer, you’re going to have to invest resources in her training.

727374 13y ago
'their' is plural and therefor would be grammatically incorrect
- akavi 13y ago
  Are you a native English speaker from the United States or the UK? If so, I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that if I were to record you speaking, it'd be less than an hour before you used 'their', 'they', or 'them' with an unambiguously singular antecedent. Singular 'they' is pervasive in English, and has a long and storied history.
- petercooper 13y ago
  http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100184652/if-someone-tells-you-singular-they-is-wrong-please-do-tell-them-to-get-stuffed/ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/10018465...
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > 'their' is plural and therefor would be grammatically incorrect No, while "their" is grammatically plural which affects verb conjugation (e.g., "he goes" vs. "they go"), its use for cases which where the antecedent is singular in number and indefinite in gender is well-established English usage which long predates the Latin-inspired prescriptivist attempt to erase such usage and was never seriously diminished in use despite that prescriptivist effort. In English as it is, rather than English as some lovers of Latin wished it would be, "they" is perfectly correct for this use.
  - 727374 13y ago
    Ok, thanks for the correction. I was not aware of the storied history of plural they. I rarely, if ever, see this pattern in professionally edited writing, though. Is it just me?
    - gruseom 13y ago
      You likely see it all the time and don't notice it. https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anytimes.com+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anytimes.com+"has+thei... https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+"has+t...
  - pjungwir 13y ago
    I've never seen this claim before. Do you have any citations of singular them/they/their that you consider predate this prescriptivist effort?
    - gruseom 13y ago
      There are countless examples, including from Shakespeare ("and every one to rest themselves betake"). See the lists at http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html and http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/sing_they_sli.pdf http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/sing_they_sli.pdf. More citations at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6058643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6058643.
      - 727374 13y ago
        Anything from the 21st century from, perhaps, a respected newspaper?
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        The 2011 revision of the New International Version of the Bible, because: The gender-neutral pronoun "they" ("them"/"their") is by far the most common way that English-language speakers and writers today refer back to singular antecedents such as "whoever," "anyone," "somebody," "a person," "no one," and the like. Even in Evangelical sermons and books, where the generic "he," "him" and "his" are preserved more frequently than in other forms of communication, instances of what grammarians are increasingly calling the "singular they" ("them" or "their") appear three times more frequently than generic masculine forms." http://www.biblica.com/niv/accuracy/ http://www.biblica.com/niv/accuracy/
bcbrown 13y ago
Some people deliberately refer to hypothetical engineers as female, to counterbalance the pervasive usage of masculine pronouns. Personally, I like writers who mix it up like that and refer to a generic person as female sometimes.
- mbillie1 13y ago
  I assumed this as well.
- crazygringo 13y ago
  I've heard of people suggesting that you use your own gender as a writer. But the author is "Justin", and his photo looks pretty masculine -- very interesting, I've never seen a guy default to "her" before in text.
  - eriklarsnilsen 13y ago
    I thought his picture was rather masculine as well. Very intimidating for a "she."
bluetidepro 13y ago
I'm glad I wasn't the only person to notice this. I'm surprised they didn't put his or her training, rather than just her training.
hvs 13y ago
Even more meta: would you have noticed if the author had said, his? And would you have felt the need to point it out here?

727374 13y ago

'their' is plural and therefor would be grammatically incorrect

akavi 13y ago
Are you a native English speaker from the United States or the UK? If so, I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that if I were to record you speaking, it'd be less than an hour before you used 'their', 'they', or 'them' with an unambiguously singular antecedent. Singular 'they' is pervasive in English, and has a long and storied history.
petercooper 13y ago
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100184652/if-someone-tells-you-singular-they-is-wrong-please-do-tell-them-to-get-stuffed/ http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/10018465...
dragonwriter 13y ago
> 'their' is plural and therefor would be grammatically incorrect No, while "their" is grammatically plural which affects verb conjugation (e.g., "he goes" vs. "they go"), its use for cases which where the antecedent is singular in number and indefinite in gender is well-established English usage which long predates the Latin-inspired prescriptivist attempt to erase such usage and was never seriously diminished in use despite that prescriptivist effort. In English as it is, rather than English as some lovers of Latin wished it would be, "they" is perfectly correct for this use.
- 727374 13y ago
  Ok, thanks for the correction. I was not aware of the storied history of plural they. I rarely, if ever, see this pattern in professionally edited writing, though. Is it just me?
  - gruseom 13y ago
    You likely see it all the time and don't notice it. https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anytimes.com+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anytimes.com+"has+thei... https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+"has+their" https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aguardian.co.uk+"has+t...
- pjungwir 13y ago
  I've never seen this claim before. Do you have any citations of singular them/they/their that you consider predate this prescriptivist effort?
  - gruseom 13y ago
    There are countless examples, including from Shakespeare ("and every one to rest themselves betake"). See the lists at http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html and http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/sing_they_sli.pdf http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/sing_they_sli.pdf. More citations at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6058643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6058643.
    - 727374 13y ago
      Anything from the 21st century from, perhaps, a respected newspaper?
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        The 2011 revision of the New International Version of the Bible, because: The gender-neutral pronoun "they" ("them"/"their") is by far the most common way that English-language speakers and writers today refer back to singular antecedents such as "whoever," "anyone," "somebody," "a person," "no one," and the like. Even in Evangelical sermons and books, where the generic "he," "him" and "his" are preserved more frequently than in other forms of communication, instances of what grammarians are increasingly calling the "singular they" ("them" or "their") appear three times more frequently than generic masculine forms." http://www.biblica.com/niv/accuracy/ http://www.biblica.com/niv/accuracy/

bcbrown 13y ago

Some people deliberately refer to hypothetical engineers as female, to counterbalance the pervasive usage of masculine pronouns. Personally, I like writers who mix it up like that and refer to a generic person as female sometimes.

mbillie1 13y ago
I assumed this as well.
crazygringo 13y ago
I've heard of people suggesting that you use your own gender as a writer. But the author is "Justin", and his photo looks pretty masculine -- very interesting, I've never seen a guy default to "her" before in text.
- eriklarsnilsen 13y ago
  I thought his picture was rather masculine as well. Very intimidating for a "she."

bluetidepro 13y ago

I'm glad I wasn't the only person to notice this. I'm surprised they didn't put his or her training, rather than just her training.

hvs 13y ago

Even more meta: would you have noticed if the author had said, his? And would you have felt the need to point it out here?