2 ms·

I see; you're the type who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the industry and just has all the answers and ignores anything that doesn't fit your idea. Neve

I see; you're the type who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the industry and just has all the answers and ignores anything that doesn't fit your idea. Never mind that no one has been able to replace JS, just listen to you and all those problems will evaporate. Goodbye.

pbsdp 13y ago
> I see; you're the type who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the industry ... You mean, like Google, who continually pushes to do exactly what I've described here, only to be stymied by: - Apple, who has no reason to support the web as competitive to their native platform. - Microsoft, same. - Mozilla, who refuses to consider that there might be a world beyond HTML/CSS/JS because they believe those specific technologies are intrinsic qualities of the web, and thus central to their mission of supporting the web. Looks like the only people I disagree with are the Mozilla camp. Microsoft and Apple have different priorities, and Google is continually frustrated by exactly what I've described here.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  > only to be stymied by: Reality. Imagine that.
  - pbsdp 13y ago
    Yes, the reality is that proprietary application platforms are taking over the application market, and that the web is slowly losing one of its major market advantages: a huge brain trust of web-only engineers and web-only engineering organizations. Imagine that.
    - marshray 13y ago
      You're joking, right?
      - gnaritas 13y ago
        He's not; he thinks he's being insightful.
        pbsdp 13y ago
        What's your excuse? Mobile is growing hand-over-fist and web apps developers are still arguing about whether they're fast enough to compete, and whether we could possibly maybe actually move past HTML/CSS/JS sometime in this decade. It's ridiculous, and you claim it's "reality". Fine, your reality sucks, and there's no inherent reason why it has to win ... and it might not.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        There's only one reality, that's rather the point of the word. Web app developers and mobile app developers are different fields, they aren't competing. The web is and will likely remain HTML/CSS/JS because it works: EVERYWHERE, and it doesn't look like that'll be changing anytime soon.
        slacka 13y ago
        If you think Web apps work everywhere, you've obviously never written one. The feature gap and performance gap between browsers is still massive. My company has shifted its focus from web apps to mobile apps. Because of the failings of HTML5, we can deliver a better experience with native apps.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        Learn to read, I said the web, not web apps and as I've been doing web development full stack for over a decade it's obvious that you are a terrible judge of who you're talking to. Web apps and mobile apps serve different market segments, your company is confused in thinking it's an either/or proposition, they both have their place and neither will be going away or displacing the other.
    - gnaritas 13y ago
      LMAO. No such thing is happening, the web isn't losing anything nor does the rise of apps on mobile threaten the web. > the reality is that proprietary application platforms are taking over the application market That doesn't even make sense as proprietary application platforms have always owned the application market.
      - pbsdp 13y ago
        > No such thing is happening ... You're asserting that there hasn't been a significant management and hiring shift in engineering departments over the past 5 years, moving away from what became a web monoculture in the post-90s environment, from roughly 2000-2005? > That doesn't even make sense as proprietary application platforms have always owned the application market. So you admit the web is ill-suited to serve as an application platform, and is failing to acquire traction in that space despite considerable but ill-focused efforts to the contrary?
        gnaritas 13y ago
        You can't even stay on topic without constantly moving the goalpost. > You're asserting that there hasn't been a significant management and hiring shift in engineering departments over the past 5 years, moving away from what became a web monoculture in the post-90s environment, from roughly 2000-2005? I asserted no such thing, learn to read. > So you admit the web is ill-suited to serve as an application platform, and is failing to acquire traction in that space despite considerable but ill-focused efforts to the contrary? I admit? What kind of stupid opening is that? Show me where I said anything about the web serving as a great application platform over native apps. You know what, never mind; you're an argumentative ill tempered child who doesn't know how to have a discussion properly. Have a nice day.
        pbsdp 13y ago
        > You know what, never mind; you're an argumentative ill tempered child who doesn't know how to have a discussion properly. Have a nice day. One of us has stuck to discussing the topic, the other, discussing the person. Good day.
- marshray 13y ago
  Every major browser vendor has pushed for some stuff and resisted other stuff. Only extremely rarely does anything new make it to 'cross browser compatible' status. There are far far worse systems for evolving widely used platforms.
  - pbsdp 13y ago
    > There are far far worse systems for evolving widely used platforms. That's fine, but perhaps it would behoove Mozilla to not participate in dooming the web as a competitive application platform simply due to a misguided belief that the web is defined by HTML/CSS/JS?
    - thelukester 13y ago
      Agreed, CSS/DOM/JS need to be replaced, before the web can truly be an application platform.

pbsdp 13y ago

> I see; you're the type who thinks he's smarter than everyone in the industry ... You mean, like Google, who continually pushes to do exactly what I've described here, only to be stymied by: - Apple, who has no reason to support the web as competitive to their native platform. - Microsoft, same. - Mozilla, who refuses to consider that there might be a world beyond HTML/CSS/JS because they believe those specific technologies are intrinsic qualities of the web, and thus central to their mission of supporting the web. Looks like the only people I disagree with are the Mozilla camp. Microsoft and Apple have different priorities, and Google is continually frustrated by exactly what I've described here.

gnaritas 13y ago
> only to be stymied by: Reality. Imagine that.
- pbsdp 13y ago
  Yes, the reality is that proprietary application platforms are taking over the application market, and that the web is slowly losing one of its major market advantages: a huge brain trust of web-only engineers and web-only engineering organizations. Imagine that.
  - marshray 13y ago
    You're joking, right?
    - gnaritas 13y ago
      He's not; he thinks he's being insightful.
      - pbsdp 13y ago
        What's your excuse? Mobile is growing hand-over-fist and web apps developers are still arguing about whether they're fast enough to compete, and whether we could possibly maybe actually move past HTML/CSS/JS sometime in this decade. It's ridiculous, and you claim it's "reality". Fine, your reality sucks, and there's no inherent reason why it has to win ... and it might not.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        There's only one reality, that's rather the point of the word. Web app developers and mobile app developers are different fields, they aren't competing. The web is and will likely remain HTML/CSS/JS because it works: EVERYWHERE, and it doesn't look like that'll be changing anytime soon.
        slacka 13y ago
        If you think Web apps work everywhere, you've obviously never written one. The feature gap and performance gap between browsers is still massive. My company has shifted its focus from web apps to mobile apps. Because of the failings of HTML5, we can deliver a better experience with native apps.
        gnaritas 13y ago
        Learn to read, I said the web, not web apps and as I've been doing web development full stack for over a decade it's obvious that you are a terrible judge of who you're talking to. Web apps and mobile apps serve different market segments, your company is confused in thinking it's an either/or proposition, they both have their place and neither will be going away or displacing the other.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    LMAO. No such thing is happening, the web isn't losing anything nor does the rise of apps on mobile threaten the web. > the reality is that proprietary application platforms are taking over the application market That doesn't even make sense as proprietary application platforms have always owned the application market.
    - pbsdp 13y ago
      > No such thing is happening ... You're asserting that there hasn't been a significant management and hiring shift in engineering departments over the past 5 years, moving away from what became a web monoculture in the post-90s environment, from roughly 2000-2005? > That doesn't even make sense as proprietary application platforms have always owned the application market. So you admit the web is ill-suited to serve as an application platform, and is failing to acquire traction in that space despite considerable but ill-focused efforts to the contrary?
      - gnaritas 13y ago
        You can't even stay on topic without constantly moving the goalpost. > You're asserting that there hasn't been a significant management and hiring shift in engineering departments over the past 5 years, moving away from what became a web monoculture in the post-90s environment, from roughly 2000-2005? I asserted no such thing, learn to read. > So you admit the web is ill-suited to serve as an application platform, and is failing to acquire traction in that space despite considerable but ill-focused efforts to the contrary? I admit? What kind of stupid opening is that? Show me where I said anything about the web serving as a great application platform over native apps. You know what, never mind; you're an argumentative ill tempered child who doesn't know how to have a discussion properly. Have a nice day.
        pbsdp 13y ago
        > You know what, never mind; you're an argumentative ill tempered child who doesn't know how to have a discussion properly. Have a nice day. One of us has stuck to discussing the topic, the other, discussing the person. Good day.
marshray 13y ago
Every major browser vendor has pushed for some stuff and resisted other stuff. Only extremely rarely does anything new make it to 'cross browser compatible' status. There are far far worse systems for evolving widely used platforms.
- pbsdp 13y ago
  > There are far far worse systems for evolving widely used platforms. That's fine, but perhaps it would behoove Mozilla to not participate in dooming the web as a competitive application platform simply due to a misguided belief that the web is defined by HTML/CSS/JS?
  - thelukester 13y ago
    Agreed, CSS/DOM/JS need to be replaced, before the web can truly be an application platform.