9 ms·

There’s this great story from the book “Art and Fear”, that's very appropriate here: === The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing th

by sivers 13y ago

There’s this great story from the book “Art and Fear”, that's very appropriate here: === The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bathroom scales and weigh the work of the “quantity” group: 50 pounds of pots rated an “A”, 40 pounds a “B”, and so on. Those being graded on “quality”, however, needed to produce only one pot — albeit a perfect one — to get an “A”. Well, came grading time and a curious fact emerged: the works of highest quality were all produced by the group being graded for quantity. It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work-and learning from their mistakes — the “quality” group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay. === Advance congratulations to Jennifer. This is amazing.

it_learnses 13y ago
Wow! that's happened with me so many times. I'll start on a project and I'll always theorize all the best features, and then best technologies to use and I end up switching so many technologies and then going on a tangential curve to learn them, and then I eventually quit the project :(
- 14113 13y ago
  Ditto. A common problem for me is starting a project, then becoming scared that I'll be inadequate, and not complete it properly. This causes me to give up on the project, and I lose out on any experience I might have got. Because I've failed to complete the project, I feel even WORSE going into the next one. It's a vicious cycle.
  - ahmadss 13y ago
    Consider reading a book called "The Now Habit". The author discusses fear of success/failure and the inability to finish projects, and deems that these fears are what cause us to procrastinate. Then he provides a plan/approach/framework to overcome these fears.
    - gxs 13y ago
      Thanks for the book recommendation. Ordered this on Amazon. This was my problem all growing up. I did well on the first exam, then fizzled out every exam after. I wouldn't study out of fear that I wouldn't do as well again. Anyway, I'll check out the book thanks again!
      - nashequilibrium 13y ago
        If you want a quick overview: Kindle notes and highlights https://kindle.amazon.com/work/the-now-habit-procrastination-ebook/B000B18LN6/B003SHERX8/posts https://kindle.amazon.com/work/the-now-habit-procrastination... powerpoint presentation http://hashref.com/summaries/TheNowHabit.pdf http://hashref.com/summaries/TheNowHabit.pdf 3 part youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Si3Gb1WSg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Si3Gb1WSg
      - clbrook 13y ago
        I'd recommend Mindset by Carol Dweck. It discusses growth mindset vs. fixed mindset. It sounds quite pertinent for your fear of not doing as well again.
        gxs 13y ago
        Thanks - ordered this as well. I've been on a self-help book binge. I shudder to think the ads I'll be seeing from google and amazon.
    - eterpstra 13y ago
      I second this book recommendation. I read it a few years ago and find myself referring back to it quite often for inspiration when I'm feeling unproductive and very procrastnaty.
  - mathgladiator 13y ago
    i have the problem of starting a project, finishing up the "cool/interesting" aspect, and then letting it rot... http://jeffrey.io/wall-of-shame http://jeffrey.io/wall-of-shame
    - pud 13y ago
      I have that problem to. I've found that the best motivator for finishing the boring parts is to have real users. After receiving your 20th "I forgot my password" email, you're sure to build that reset-password feature.
      - vidarh 13y ago
        Or you blind yourself to it and learn to just treat those tasks as one more excuse to not do the real stuff. I'm battling that at work: Many people see a flood of notifications etc. and disengage totally - if it's not causing a crisis, then clearly it does not need to be dealt with right away, and so it gets put aside if it's something boring. I've forced myself to forgo almost all my mail filters and "consume" the raw stream of notification e-mails (thousands a day) and start each day with picking a few of the noisiest ones and addressing the root causes (and where possible doing so in a way that can be applied more broadly), but it's oh so tempting to just waste time on the superficial symptoms that are easy and quick to deal with individually, but will eat all my time if I let them.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  I used to have this problem (and still do to some extent) but it's not impossible to improve. Pick an idea and commit to completing it in the way that you envisage it now, even if midway through you discover a new technology or better way to do it, stick to what you originally planned. There is always a better way to do something and if you allow yourself to be distracted by a "better" way of doing something midway through, you'll find midway through the "better" thing there's another new even better thing and the cycle will repeat. The best code isn't always perfect code, the best code is code that exists. You'll learn way more from a project if you work on it start to finish, even if it could have been built better. There's always Version 2.
  - ksrm 13y ago
    aka: you can't refactor code you haven't written yet.
  - lobotryas 13y ago
    Aka: don't repeat the mistakes of the Duke Nukem Forever team. As for code, the best code is that which generates value (either for the creator in terms of learning or for the creator's customers). If the code doesn't generate value, then you might as well be writing FizzBuzz implementations all day.
  - cahitonur 13y ago
    "The best code isn't always perfect code, the best code is code that exists." I totally agree to this one.
thenomad 13y ago
Exactly the anecdote that I thought of when I saw this project. It also reminds me of Johnathan Coulton's breakout period - his Thing A Week project: http://www.jonathancoulton.com/category/thing-a-week/ http://www.jonathancoulton.com/category/thing-a-week/ Incidentally, this technique works. If you want to learn a creative skill, I'd argue it's about the best way to do it.
jenniferDewalt 13y ago
Oh wow, I love that story! Thanks for sharing.
mathattack 13y ago
I have heard similar theories for this. It's also consistent with the 10,000 hours rule. Sometimes you have to do to learn and improve. The improvement is certainly evident here.
edw519 13y ago
This is a great reason to do what is often frowned upon by us high achieving Hacker Newsers: get a job. I have worked on so many projects in so many jobs that I lost track long ago. But it's always been the same: Get it done, good enough, on time! At first, I was always frustrated that I wasn't delivering product up to my own standards. But a funny thing happens when you do that hundreds (or thousands) of times: You get so good from sheer repetition that "good enough" morphs into "pretty damn good". Don't be afraid to take what appears to be a boring, repetitious, or demeaning job. You never know what you might become. Thanks for the great story, Derek! And thanks for the great post and project, Jennifer. You inspire me.
- gmrple 13y ago
  Thanks, I've been feeling like what I've been doing lately just isn't up to snuff, and have been getting frustrated. I think this will help change my perspective.
- bcbrown 13y ago
  That's very helpful, Ed. I recently started a new job, and I've been frustrated that my work output isn't 'perfect' yet. I rationally know that I just need to keep my head down and churn through assignments over time, but it helps to hear that from someone else, too.
  - markdown 13y ago
    http://i.imgur.com/nWcYizP.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nWcYizP.jpg
    - scott_s 13y ago
      Quoth Ira Glass. I wish whoever made that had attributed it - Ira certainly deserves it.
    - mambodog 13y ago
      Rather than a poster, check out the original source[0], I find Ira Glass' delivery more relatable. [0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI23U7U2aUY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI23U7U2aUY
chacham15 13y ago
I think that your story is very interesting. Essentially, producing volume is the same as iterating on the same product over and over; only starting the iteration from scratch. One thing I would like to point out, however, is that there exists a difference between the set of websites that can be built in a day and the set of websites which cannot. For example, websites which require back-end technologies generally fall into the latter category. The skills learned in perfecting the former are somewhat different than the skills necessary for the latter. I would encourage Jennifer to take some time after this and explore the second category to further her abilities.
- jenniferDewalt 13y ago
  I totally agree. This project is meant to be a jumping off point for learning to code. On day 180 I certainly won't be an expert at anything, but I'll have the tools I need to keep exploring.
  - petea 13y ago
    >chacham15: For example, websites which require back-end technologies generally fall into the latter category. The skills learned in perfecting the former are somewhat different than the skills necessary for the latter. The funny thing is you already knows unbelievable amount of backend code for a beginner. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6099489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6099489)
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - ceol 13y ago
      Did you see her initial commit?[0] It's the default Rails app. Any tech-savvy person can throw that up on github in a day if they know nothing about it. The next time she changes the app/ directory, where all the actual Ruby code goes, is two months later.[1] Absolutely nothing she's said has given the impression she is trying to mislead. [0]: https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/tree/258e91c40f9fe313788175ac667f814759d705e1 https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/tree/258e91c40f... [1]: https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/commit/c0d02c8cee3358839801b19933328bf3f24f7ea6#app https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/commit/c0d02c8c...
mathgladiator 13y ago
I'm taking this approach with my wood-working: http://jeffrey.io/finishing-things http://jeffrey.io/finishing-things
Aqueous 13y ago
This is the reason why a) I let myself off the hook for work that had to be rushed and isn't quite perfect when it ships, and B) why I'm not so goddamn critical of other people's work. Most of us are works in progress, doing the best we can, iterating and making mistakes all the way through, but gradually and incrementally improving. This need to be perfect all the time is a neurosis that our society needs to lose because it results in us being perfect never.
- eitally 13y ago
  We -- as a huge generalization -- also need to get better at asking for help. :-)
samstave 13y ago
One of my first jobs out of highschool was as a cad drafter for an architecture firm. As the low kid on the totem-pole, I was given the tasks that were not liked by the architects: drawing detail sheets and reproducing blueprints. -- both tasks were highly repetative. I took both as opportunities to find a meditative cadence to the work. I actually really enjoyed the rhythm of taking plots of large 30x42 inch drawings, marrying them with a blueprint sheet and sending it through the machine. The room was rather small - so you had to pickup a sheet, flip it over, rotate it, stack them, rotate the pair and feed it to the machine. It became a beautiful meditation in movement and was really enjoyable. With details - I had to draw so many and build so many of the same sheets - I became exceedingly proficient and soon was an exceptionally fast cad drafter... There is a lot one can learn through mass repetition especially if you do so with the right frame of mind - and not lament the task.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  I've definitely had that moment before through repetition, in a rather unlikely subject: manually doing Fourier Transform integrals.
  - samstave 13y ago
    Is this something you could teach me?
- wensing 13y ago
  Oh my goodness -- you too?! I spent many a summer day matching blue paper against printed sheets and the occasional Mylar! I found the same zone you're talking about. Except ... did you ever get a paper cut and then reach over the ammonia fumes coming out the back? :-P
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Ah I remember the joys sharing the basement with our printing section though a dyline printers fumes did wonders for cutting through a heavy head cold. Only down side is they kept flooding the basement having tide marks on you computer rooms walls is not ideal :-)
antitrust 13y ago
> It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work-and learning from their mistakes — the “quality” group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay. I find this story very suspicious. Even theorists like to apply their work and prototype. It sounds more like they were scared into inaction by the grade-weight, which is something I've seen in classes where one test determines the grade for the whole semester.
- nashequilibrium 13y ago
  "It sounds more like they were scared into inaction by the grade-weight, which is something I've seen in classes where one test determines the grade for the whole semester." I would love some deeper insight into this, do you have any sources? Thanks.
  - antitrust 13y ago
    Other than personal observation, no, I'm afraid. I doubt there is any (greater than zero) interest in researching this topic, especially since most of us get nostalgic for any type of system if we've succeeded in it. However, having gone through a number of competitive schools at different levels of education... the smartest kids were not always at the head of the class. There were also people of moderate to high intelligence who suffered huge test-taking anxiety, which got worse when you had a situation where one test or one project determined the semester's grade. It's kind of like your first driver's test to get your license at sixteen. Sometimes the stress was so much that people fainted while waiting in line.
    - eitally 13y ago
      This has been my experience, too. If you looked at the makeup of the top 10 students in my high school class, you'd find it composed of about 50% raw intelligence and 50% hard work. There is absolutely no question that there were a couple handfuls of super-smart folks who graduated nowhere near the top of the class (but still in the upper quartile, generally because doing worse than that is pretty tough if you're reasonably intelligent), but the consistent effort at producing quality output by the hard workers earned them top marks. Not surprisingly to anyone, this cohort tended to perform better at university, where independent study is more critical to success, and (afaik) they're all doing great professionally. Of those top ten, the hard workers are mostly doctors now and the geniuses are mostly STEM professionals. Of course, this is a tiny sample size and there are all kinds of biases, so take it as it is -- a personal anecdote.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
Is this the Art and Fear book you're referencing? I searched Amazon and found a few. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Fear-Observations-Artmaking-ebook/dp/B0042JSQLU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374698717&sr=8-1&keywords=art+and+fear http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Fear-Observations-Artmaking-eboo...
- sivers 13y ago
  Yep. That's the one. Here are my notes on it: http://sivers.org/book/ArtAndFear http://sivers.org/book/ArtAndFear
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    Excellent thank you, just added to my Amazon wish list and about to read through your notes.
fnbaptiste 13y ago
That's an awesome story. Kinda makes me want to get crack'n on things.
awwstn 13y ago
Reminds me of a quote I really liked from a Macklemore song: "The greats weren't great because at birth they could paint. The greats were great cause they paint a lot."
grecy 13y ago
While I love the message from the story, I feel the need to "hack it". If I were in the "quantity" group, I would have just made one god-awful lump of clay object weighing 100lbs, then found other more interesting things to do for the rest of the class.
- rwallace 13y ago
  If you'd rather be doing something more interesting, why sign up for the class in the first place?
colmvp 13y ago
I remember listening to Ira Glass talk about how terrible he was as a storyteller when he first started, and how the only reason why he got better was because of the real basic idea of keeping at it and increasing his volume of work.
lispython 13y ago
Beautiful story, but when think about the details it may misleading. If the only object or the judgment criteria of the quantity way is quantity, and without any deliberate practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)#Deliberate_practice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)#Deli...) why the students finally not just only develop a way to produce high quantity product? It's not the same way MacCready solve Henry Kremer's problem (http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/the-wrong-problem/ http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/the-wrong-problem/), although looks similar.
liquidcool 13y ago
Two of the best screenwriting schools are USC and UCLA. The key difference between the two MFA programs (at least a few years ago) was that UCLA required you to write 4 screenplays and USC 1. The logic behind UCLA's requirement was that finishing screenplays is really hard. So many screenwriters have a pile of unfinished screenplays and some never finish any. You really need to get in the habit of finishing them. (Full disclosure: my source was my screenwriting prof who was a UCLA MFA.) BTW, I read the same ceramics story in "The War of Art" by Steven Pressfield (which I note came out a year later). Good book.
nakedrobot2 13y ago
That was a study. And I understand perfectly. However. The typewriter factory output and productivity in the soviet union was also measured solely by weight. This did not fare so well. :-) Thankfully this ceramics teacher didn't run an entire industry of a global superpower :-)
SilasX 13y ago
Well, the lesson I took away is that pottery students aren't smart enough to turn in 50 lb of unformed clay if that's all it takes to get the best grade. (And that made-up anecdotes will take you pretty far.)

by sivers 13y ago

it_learnses 13y ago

Wow! that's happened with me so many times. I'll start on a project and I'll always theorize all the best features, and then best technologies to use and I end up switching so many technologies and then going on a tangential curve to learn them, and then I eventually quit the project :(

14113 13y ago
Ditto. A common problem for me is starting a project, then becoming scared that I'll be inadequate, and not complete it properly. This causes me to give up on the project, and I lose out on any experience I might have got. Because I've failed to complete the project, I feel even WORSE going into the next one. It's a vicious cycle.
- ahmadss 13y ago
  Consider reading a book called "The Now Habit". The author discusses fear of success/failure and the inability to finish projects, and deems that these fears are what cause us to procrastinate. Then he provides a plan/approach/framework to overcome these fears.
  - gxs 13y ago
    Thanks for the book recommendation. Ordered this on Amazon. This was my problem all growing up. I did well on the first exam, then fizzled out every exam after. I wouldn't study out of fear that I wouldn't do as well again. Anyway, I'll check out the book thanks again!
    - nashequilibrium 13y ago
      If you want a quick overview: Kindle notes and highlights https://kindle.amazon.com/work/the-now-habit-procrastination-ebook/B000B18LN6/B003SHERX8/posts https://kindle.amazon.com/work/the-now-habit-procrastination... powerpoint presentation http://hashref.com/summaries/TheNowHabit.pdf http://hashref.com/summaries/TheNowHabit.pdf 3 part youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Si3Gb1WSg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Si3Gb1WSg
    - clbrook 13y ago
      I'd recommend Mindset by Carol Dweck. It discusses growth mindset vs. fixed mindset. It sounds quite pertinent for your fear of not doing as well again.
      - gxs 13y ago
        Thanks - ordered this as well. I've been on a self-help book binge. I shudder to think the ads I'll be seeing from google and amazon.
  - eterpstra 13y ago
    I second this book recommendation. I read it a few years ago and find myself referring back to it quite often for inspiration when I'm feeling unproductive and very procrastnaty.
- mathgladiator 13y ago
  i have the problem of starting a project, finishing up the "cool/interesting" aspect, and then letting it rot... http://jeffrey.io/wall-of-shame http://jeffrey.io/wall-of-shame
  - pud 13y ago
    I have that problem to. I've found that the best motivator for finishing the boring parts is to have real users. After receiving your 20th "I forgot my password" email, you're sure to build that reset-password feature.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      Or you blind yourself to it and learn to just treat those tasks as one more excuse to not do the real stuff. I'm battling that at work: Many people see a flood of notifications etc. and disengage totally - if it's not causing a crisis, then clearly it does not need to be dealt with right away, and so it gets put aside if it's something boring. I've forced myself to forgo almost all my mail filters and "consume" the raw stream of notification e-mails (thousands a day) and start each day with picking a few of the noisiest ones and addressing the root causes (and where possible doing so in a way that can be applied more broadly), but it's oh so tempting to just waste time on the superficial symptoms that are easy and quick to deal with individually, but will eat all my time if I let them.
citricsquid 13y ago
I used to have this problem (and still do to some extent) but it's not impossible to improve. Pick an idea and commit to completing it in the way that you envisage it now, even if midway through you discover a new technology or better way to do it, stick to what you originally planned. There is always a better way to do something and if you allow yourself to be distracted by a "better" way of doing something midway through, you'll find midway through the "better" thing there's another new even better thing and the cycle will repeat. The best code isn't always perfect code, the best code is code that exists. You'll learn way more from a project if you work on it start to finish, even if it could have been built better. There's always Version 2.
- ksrm 13y ago
  aka: you can't refactor code you haven't written yet.
- lobotryas 13y ago
  Aka: don't repeat the mistakes of the Duke Nukem Forever team. As for code, the best code is that which generates value (either for the creator in terms of learning or for the creator's customers). If the code doesn't generate value, then you might as well be writing FizzBuzz implementations all day.
- cahitonur 13y ago
  "The best code isn't always perfect code, the best code is code that exists." I totally agree to this one.

thenomad 13y ago

Exactly the anecdote that I thought of when I saw this project. It also reminds me of Johnathan Coulton's breakout period - his Thing A Week project: http://www.jonathancoulton.com/category/thing-a-week/ http://www.jonathancoulton.com/category/thing-a-week/ Incidentally, this technique works. If you want to learn a creative skill, I'd argue it's about the best way to do it.

jenniferDewalt 13y ago

Oh wow, I love that story! Thanks for sharing.

mathattack 13y ago

I have heard similar theories for this. It's also consistent with the 10,000 hours rule. Sometimes you have to do to learn and improve. The improvement is certainly evident here.

edw519 13y ago

This is a great reason to do what is often frowned upon by us high achieving Hacker Newsers: get a job. I have worked on so many projects in so many jobs that I lost track long ago. But it's always been the same: Get it done, good enough, on time! At first, I was always frustrated that I wasn't delivering product up to my own standards. But a funny thing happens when you do that hundreds (or thousands) of times: You get so good from sheer repetition that "good enough" morphs into "pretty damn good". Don't be afraid to take what appears to be a boring, repetitious, or demeaning job. You never know what you might become. Thanks for the great story, Derek! And thanks for the great post and project, Jennifer. You inspire me.

gmrple 13y ago
Thanks, I've been feeling like what I've been doing lately just isn't up to snuff, and have been getting frustrated. I think this will help change my perspective.
bcbrown 13y ago
That's very helpful, Ed. I recently started a new job, and I've been frustrated that my work output isn't 'perfect' yet. I rationally know that I just need to keep my head down and churn through assignments over time, but it helps to hear that from someone else, too.
- markdown 13y ago
  http://i.imgur.com/nWcYizP.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nWcYizP.jpg
  - scott_s 13y ago
    Quoth Ira Glass. I wish whoever made that had attributed it - Ira certainly deserves it.
  - mambodog 13y ago
    Rather than a poster, check out the original source[0], I find Ira Glass' delivery more relatable. [0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI23U7U2aUY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI23U7U2aUY

chacham15 13y ago

I think that your story is very interesting. Essentially, producing volume is the same as iterating on the same product over and over; only starting the iteration from scratch. One thing I would like to point out, however, is that there exists a difference between the set of websites that can be built in a day and the set of websites which cannot. For example, websites which require back-end technologies generally fall into the latter category. The skills learned in perfecting the former are somewhat different than the skills necessary for the latter. I would encourage Jennifer to take some time after this and explore the second category to further her abilities.

jenniferDewalt 13y ago
I totally agree. This project is meant to be a jumping off point for learning to code. On day 180 I certainly won't be an expert at anything, but I'll have the tools I need to keep exploring.
- petea 13y ago
  >chacham15: For example, websites which require back-end technologies generally fall into the latter category. The skills learned in perfecting the former are somewhat different than the skills necessary for the latter. The funny thing is you already knows unbelievable amount of backend code for a beginner. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6099489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6099489)
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceol 13y ago
    Did you see her initial commit?[0] It's the default Rails app. Any tech-savvy person can throw that up on github in a day if they know nothing about it. The next time she changes the app/ directory, where all the actual Ruby code goes, is two months later.[1] Absolutely nothing she's said has given the impression she is trying to mislead. [0]: https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/tree/258e91c40f9fe313788175ac667f814759d705e1 https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/tree/258e91c40f... [1]: https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/commit/c0d02c8cee3358839801b19933328bf3f24f7ea6#app https://github.com/jendewalt/jennifer_dewalt/commit/c0d02c8c...

mathgladiator 13y ago

I'm taking this approach with my wood-working: http://jeffrey.io/finishing-things http://jeffrey.io/finishing-things

Aqueous 13y ago

This is the reason why a) I let myself off the hook for work that had to be rushed and isn't quite perfect when it ships, and B) why I'm not so goddamn critical of other people's work. Most of us are works in progress, doing the best we can, iterating and making mistakes all the way through, but gradually and incrementally improving. This need to be perfect all the time is a neurosis that our society needs to lose because it results in us being perfect never.

eitally 13y ago
We -- as a huge generalization -- also need to get better at asking for help. :-)

samstave 13y ago

One of my first jobs out of highschool was as a cad drafter for an architecture firm. As the low kid on the totem-pole, I was given the tasks that were not liked by the architects: drawing detail sheets and reproducing blueprints. -- both tasks were highly repetative. I took both as opportunities to find a meditative cadence to the work. I actually really enjoyed the rhythm of taking plots of large 30x42 inch drawings, marrying them with a blueprint sheet and sending it through the machine. The room was rather small - so you had to pickup a sheet, flip it over, rotate it, stack them, rotate the pair and feed it to the machine. It became a beautiful meditation in movement and was really enjoyable. With details - I had to draw so many and build so many of the same sheets - I became exceedingly proficient and soon was an exceptionally fast cad drafter... There is a lot one can learn through mass repetition especially if you do so with the right frame of mind - and not lament the task.

hkmurakami 13y ago
I've definitely had that moment before through repetition, in a rather unlikely subject: manually doing Fourier Transform integrals.
- samstave 13y ago
  Is this something you could teach me?
wensing 13y ago
Oh my goodness -- you too?! I spent many a summer day matching blue paper against printed sheets and the occasional Mylar! I found the same zone you're talking about. Except ... did you ever get a paper cut and then reach over the ammonia fumes coming out the back? :-P
- walshemj 13y ago
  Ah I remember the joys sharing the basement with our printing section though a dyline printers fumes did wonders for cutting through a heavy head cold. Only down side is they kept flooding the basement having tide marks on you computer rooms walls is not ideal :-)

antitrust 13y ago

> It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work-and learning from their mistakes — the “quality” group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay. I find this story very suspicious. Even theorists like to apply their work and prototype. It sounds more like they were scared into inaction by the grade-weight, which is something I've seen in classes where one test determines the grade for the whole semester.

nashequilibrium 13y ago
"It sounds more like they were scared into inaction by the grade-weight, which is something I've seen in classes where one test determines the grade for the whole semester." I would love some deeper insight into this, do you have any sources? Thanks.
- antitrust 13y ago
  Other than personal observation, no, I'm afraid. I doubt there is any (greater than zero) interest in researching this topic, especially since most of us get nostalgic for any type of system if we've succeeded in it. However, having gone through a number of competitive schools at different levels of education... the smartest kids were not always at the head of the class. There were also people of moderate to high intelligence who suffered huge test-taking anxiety, which got worse when you had a situation where one test or one project determined the semester's grade. It's kind of like your first driver's test to get your license at sixteen. Sometimes the stress was so much that people fainted while waiting in line.
  - eitally 13y ago
    This has been my experience, too. If you looked at the makeup of the top 10 students in my high school class, you'd find it composed of about 50% raw intelligence and 50% hard work. There is absolutely no question that there were a couple handfuls of super-smart folks who graduated nowhere near the top of the class (but still in the upper quartile, generally because doing worse than that is pretty tough if you're reasonably intelligent), but the consistent effort at producing quality output by the hard workers earned them top marks. Not surprisingly to anyone, this cohort tended to perform better at university, where independent study is more critical to success, and (afaik) they're all doing great professionally. Of those top ten, the hard workers are mostly doctors now and the geniuses are mostly STEM professionals. Of course, this is a tiny sample size and there are all kinds of biases, so take it as it is -- a personal anecdote.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

Is this the Art and Fear book you're referencing? I searched Amazon and found a few. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Fear-Observations-Artmaking-ebook/dp/B0042JSQLU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374698717&sr=8-1&keywords=art+and+fear http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Fear-Observations-Artmaking-eboo...

sivers 13y ago
Yep. That's the one. Here are my notes on it: http://sivers.org/book/ArtAndFear http://sivers.org/book/ArtAndFear
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Excellent thank you, just added to my Amazon wish list and about to read through your notes.

fnbaptiste 13y ago

That's an awesome story. Kinda makes me want to get crack'n on things.

awwstn 13y ago

Reminds me of a quote I really liked from a Macklemore song: "The greats weren't great because at birth they could paint. The greats were great cause they paint a lot."

grecy 13y ago

While I love the message from the story, I feel the need to "hack it". If I were in the "quantity" group, I would have just made one god-awful lump of clay object weighing 100lbs, then found other more interesting things to do for the rest of the class.

rwallace 13y ago
If you'd rather be doing something more interesting, why sign up for the class in the first place?

colmvp 13y ago

I remember listening to Ira Glass talk about how terrible he was as a storyteller when he first started, and how the only reason why he got better was because of the real basic idea of keeping at it and increasing his volume of work.

lispython 13y ago

Beautiful story, but when think about the details it may misleading. If the only object or the judgment criteria of the quantity way is quantity, and without any deliberate practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)#Deliberate_practice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)#Deli...) why the students finally not just only develop a way to produce high quantity product? It's not the same way MacCready solve Henry Kremer's problem (http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/the-wrong-problem/ http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/the-wrong-problem/), although looks similar.

liquidcool 13y ago

Two of the best screenwriting schools are USC and UCLA. The key difference between the two MFA programs (at least a few years ago) was that UCLA required you to write 4 screenplays and USC 1. The logic behind UCLA's requirement was that finishing screenplays is really hard. So many screenwriters have a pile of unfinished screenplays and some never finish any. You really need to get in the habit of finishing them. (Full disclosure: my source was my screenwriting prof who was a UCLA MFA.) BTW, I read the same ceramics story in "The War of Art" by Steven Pressfield (which I note came out a year later). Good book.

nakedrobot2 13y ago

That was a study. And I understand perfectly. However. The typewriter factory output and productivity in the soviet union was also measured solely by weight. This did not fare so well. :-) Thankfully this ceramics teacher didn't run an entire industry of a global superpower :-)

SilasX 13y ago

Well, the lesson I took away is that pottery students aren't smart enough to turn in 50 lb of unformed clay if that's all it takes to get the best grade. (And that made-up anecdotes will take you pretty far.)