5 ms·

I hate when someone suggests adding process to fix a problem - and I saw this quite a few times already. Most people clearly understand the benefits of adding

by igorhvr 17y ago

I hate when someone suggests adding process to fix a problem - and I saw this quite a few times already. Most people clearly understand the benefits of adding process, but very few seem to realize the costs. If I tried hard I am pretty sure I could create a checklist with 1000 items for each developer to go through, and no one could argue against any of the items - individually, they would all be ok / necessary / correct. However, if I forced every developer to go through the list every time, for every change, they would - rightly so - feel crushed. With very few exceptions - where a new process is really granted, I see people trying to substitute either thinking or automation by process. Which is a recipe for bureaucracy, and in my view a good part of why working for a BigCo can be so miserable sometimes. A new process should be a last resort, after we answered yes to: a) Is it really beyond us to automate this?, b) Is there some flaw in human beings that will ensure this will repeat? c) Are the consequences of this mistake really serious?

dfj225 17y ago
When I said process, I meant automated process. As a programmer, performing calculable tasks by hand is always out of the question :-P
thras 17y ago
It turns out that you can reduce the number of surgical instruments left in patients by 33% by implementing checklists. Surgeons won't do it because it feels beneath them.
- TJensen 17y ago
  So get the nurses to do it for them, which, I believe, is what the researchers who were looking at this had to do.
- imajes 17y ago
  what bothers me is why this isn't more like 90% (in other words, why you don't check all items in and out - anything else is pretty lame supply chain management)
- bkudria 17y ago
  And it is. We have computers for this. Specifically, RFID chips, and readers. Surgeons are very very expensive, so their time is too.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Surgeons are very very expensive, so their time is too. Surgical instruments, on the other hand, are easy to replace ;)
  - snprbob86 17y ago
    You don't need to get that fancy. Just paint silhouettes of the instruments onto the counter. Same effect, simpler operation, bonus clutter reduction.
- eru 17y ago
  http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_...
thorax 17y ago
I agree that process can be a demoralizing effect, but I like to play devil's advocate. An hour of Google's revenue lost from 14% of their customers costs them about $350,000 (judging roughly by Q109 revenue numbers). Had it been 100% of customers impacted during that hour (i.e. a bigger goof-up) they'd have lost ~$2.55 million. If you had 9,000 engineers making 100k a year on average, they could each spend an hour every day on paranoid safeguard processes and only cost the company $308,000. So is it worth investing in processes to avoid that? Absolutely. Even if they can't find a good way to automate this, it's hard to argue against protecting against that sort of loss of revenue however you can.
- wheels 17y ago
  If you had 9,000 engineers making 100k a year on average, they could each spend an hour every day on paranoid safeguard processes and only cost the company $308,000. Uhm, it's closer to $500k. Per day. So based on today's goof, which is presumably rare, with your batch of added paranoia they'd be still be out $150k for the day, and they'd be out $500k all of the days that there wasn't a colossal screwup.
  - thorax 17y ago
    You're 100% right. I picked a too outlandish number in my devil's advocating and back-of-the-napkin'd the engineering wrong. Sorry about that-- can't correct my comment anymore, unfortunately. You shoulda slammed me sooner. I can't see any rational reason to argue that way with those economics.
- edmccaffrey 17y ago
  It's incredibly myopic to say that an hour of downtime equals an hour of lost revenue. When my favorite takeout place has busy phone lines, I wait 5 minutes and then call back. I wanted to search for something during the downtime, and I didn't go to Yahoo--I waited. They definitely lost revenue, but it is a ridiculous, baseless claim that everyone went somewhere else during the downtime. You have absolutely no data to make any such claim. Furthermore, your calculated cost of an engineer's time is simplistic and inaccurate. It doesn't count the lost revenues from delaying the release of their work, and the reduced value of that money by gaining a lower time value for it (getting money earlier means more time to multiply it through investments and reinvestments). And, even worse, you are comparing the DAILY costs of developer time (which you grossly underestimated) to something that happens, maybe, once or twice per decade. It could cost them many millions--maybe even hundreds of millions or more--per year to implement such a policy. That's why these mistakes happen--it is cheaper to fix the rare screw-up than to waste too much time checking everything, except for very few circumstances.

by igorhvr 17y ago

dfj225 17y ago

When I said process, I meant automated process. As a programmer, performing calculable tasks by hand is always out of the question :-P

thras 17y ago

It turns out that you can reduce the number of surgical instruments left in patients by 33% by implementing checklists. Surgeons won't do it because it feels beneath them.

TJensen 17y ago
So get the nurses to do it for them, which, I believe, is what the researchers who were looking at this had to do.
imajes 17y ago
what bothers me is why this isn't more like 90% (in other words, why you don't check all items in and out - anything else is pretty lame supply chain management)
bkudria 17y ago
And it is. We have computers for this. Specifically, RFID chips, and readers. Surgeons are very very expensive, so their time is too.
- andreyf 17y ago
  Surgeons are very very expensive, so their time is too. Surgical instruments, on the other hand, are easy to replace ;)
- snprbob86 17y ago
  You don't need to get that fancy. Just paint silhouettes of the instruments onto the counter. Same effect, simpler operation, bonus clutter reduction.
eru 17y ago
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_...

thorax 17y ago

I agree that process can be a demoralizing effect, but I like to play devil's advocate. An hour of Google's revenue lost from 14% of their customers costs them about $350,000 (judging roughly by Q109 revenue numbers). Had it been 100% of customers impacted during that hour (i.e. a bigger goof-up) they'd have lost ~$2.55 million. If you had 9,000 engineers making 100k a year on average, they could each spend an hour every day on paranoid safeguard processes and only cost the company $308,000. So is it worth investing in processes to avoid that? Absolutely. Even if they can't find a good way to automate this, it's hard to argue against protecting against that sort of loss of revenue however you can.

wheels 17y ago
If you had 9,000 engineers making 100k a year on average, they could each spend an hour every day on paranoid safeguard processes and only cost the company $308,000. Uhm, it's closer to $500k. Per day. So based on today's goof, which is presumably rare, with your batch of added paranoia they'd be still be out $150k for the day, and they'd be out $500k all of the days that there wasn't a colossal screwup.
- thorax 17y ago
  You're 100% right. I picked a too outlandish number in my devil's advocating and back-of-the-napkin'd the engineering wrong. Sorry about that-- can't correct my comment anymore, unfortunately. You shoulda slammed me sooner. I can't see any rational reason to argue that way with those economics.
edmccaffrey 17y ago
It's incredibly myopic to say that an hour of downtime equals an hour of lost revenue. When my favorite takeout place has busy phone lines, I wait 5 minutes and then call back. I wanted to search for something during the downtime, and I didn't go to Yahoo--I waited. They definitely lost revenue, but it is a ridiculous, baseless claim that everyone went somewhere else during the downtime. You have absolutely no data to make any such claim. Furthermore, your calculated cost of an engineer's time is simplistic and inaccurate. It doesn't count the lost revenues from delaying the release of their work, and the reduced value of that money by gaining a lower time value for it (getting money earlier means more time to multiply it through investments and reinvestments). And, even worse, you are comparing the DAILY costs of developer time (which you grossly underestimated) to something that happens, maybe, once or twice per decade. It could cost them many millions--maybe even hundreds of millions or more--per year to implement such a policy. That's why these mistakes happen--it is cheaper to fix the rare screw-up than to waste too much time checking everything, except for very few circumstances.