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"I mean, Putin straight kills journalists." So does the United States of America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r

by falk 13y ago

"I mean, Putin straight kills journalists." So does the United States of America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0 The United States government wants to make an example out of Snowden. There's no way he would serve just two years in prison.

tootie 13y ago
That isn't remotely the same thing.
twoodfin 13y ago
Would it stretch your moral intellect too far to identify a key distinction there? Namely, intent matters: The U.S., as far as anyone has demonstrated, does not set out to kill journalists because what they write is inconvenient.
- _ak 13y ago
  > The U.S., as far as anyone has demonstrated, does not set out to kill journalists because what they write is inconvenient. I remember that prior to the invasion of Iraq, the US said that any journalist that is not embedded with US troops is fair game. That does sound like they didn't mind killing journalists they don't control. This attitude also clearly shows in the bombing of the Al Jazeera offices in Baghdad, Bush's 2004 idea of bombing the Al Jazeera HQ in Qatar, or the attack on the Palestine Hotel.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    I remember that prior to the invasion of Iraq, the US said that any journalist that is not embedded with US troops is fair game. That does sound like they didn't mind killing journalists they don't control. The quote you're likely thinking of was from then-Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke literally as Baghdad was falling: Pentagon spokeswoman Clarke said of Baghdad on Tuesday, "It is not a safe place. You should not be there." [1] Whether journalists thought it would be a good idea to hang out in Baghdad while it was under coalition assault, the Bush administration clearly thought that would be an unsafe thing to do. That doesn't mean they "didn't mind killing journalists they don't control" or that they claimed anything about journalists being "fair game". [1] http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Baghdad-closer-to-collapse-Army-Marine-tanks-2656778.php#page-2 http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Baghdad-closer-to-collaps...
- rada 13y ago
  New York Times media correspondent David Carr: “If you add up the pulling of news organization phone records (The Associated Press), the tracking of individual reporters (Fox News), and the effort by the current administration to go after sources (seven instances and counting in which a government official has been criminally charged with leaking classified information to the news media), suggesting that there is a war on the press is less hyperbole than simple math.” AP president Gary Pruitt: "Longtime sources have stopped talking to the Associated Press in response to the Obama administration’s secret seizure of the wire service’s phone records. This chilling effect is not just at AP, it’s happening at other news organizations as well. Journalists from other news organizations have personally told me it has intimidated sources from speaking to them." Chief White House Correspondent for NBC News Chuck Todd: "You end up essentially criminalizing journalism when it comes to reporting on the federal government, particularly on national security. You know, I’ve had different conversations with people over the last week who are sitting there not quite comfortable having certain conversations on the phone." Would it stretch your moral intellect to google any of the above? The US has successfully criminalized real journalism so there is no need to kill. Not a whole lot better.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Now you've moved the goal posts from claims the U.S. "straight kills journalists" to some chilling effects from a variety of leak prosecutions. One can think the latter are a bad thing without drawing a parallel to regimes that murder journalists they don't like!
    - rada 13y ago
      The killing of journalists may be the most dramatic measure in the context of freedom of the press but it's hardly the only one, and it is absolutely fair to discuss the whole picture. For example, on this Freedom Of Press Index, Russia is far ahead of China which does not kill journalists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_an... I would also like to address your "some chilling effects" comment. Investigative reporters are only as good as their sources and the sources have been silenced. That's a nuclear winter, not "some chilling effects". Meta: is it really necessary to imply that whomever you are responding to is lacking in intellectual capacity? What's with all the "would it stretch your intellect to...", "one can think x without drawing a parallel to y..." and so on. If your arguments are strong, let them stand on their own.
- falk 13y ago
  The United States government traffics drugs such as heroin [1], has started wars under false pretenses to profit multi-national corporations [2] [3], backs death squads in Indonesia [4], tried to convince Martin Luther King Jr. to commit suicide [5], has conducted covert operations to dismantle and replace government structures across the world [6], has conducted experiments involving drugs like LSD on unwilling participants [7], is known to kidnap and torture people [8] [9], intercepts phone calls in the United States and collects every piece of information they can disregarding the constitution [10] [11] [12], performs drone strikes that kill innocent civilians [13], and kills American citizens without due process [14] [15]. Do you honestly believe they haven't killed any vocal opponents including journalists? If so, that is massively dangerous thinking. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_South... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war [4] http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/19/the_act_of_killing_new_film http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/19/the_act_of_killing_new... [5] http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/01/21/the-fbi-wrote-a-letter-to-martin-luther-king-telling-him-to-commit-suicide/ http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/01/21/the-fbi-wrote-a-lette... [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_and_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_and_the_United_States [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_el-Masri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_el-Masri [10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [11] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON [12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM [13] http://dirtywars.org http://dirtywars.org [14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki [15] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/us/us-acknowledges-killing-4-americans-in-drone-strikes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/us/us-acknowledges-killing... Edit: Saw another comment and did some more digging. Found a great article which I'll quote some of. You can find a link to it below. "On April 8, 2003, during the US-led invasion of Iraq, Al Jazeera correspondent Tareq Ayoub was killed when a US warplane bombed Al Jazeera's headquarters in Baghdad." "Disturbingly, more journalists were murdered in targeted killings in Iraq than died in combat-related circumstances, according to the group Committee to Protect Journalists." ""Between 2003 and 2010 more than 30 Iraqi journalists were detained and held in prisons in Iraq by the Americans," she explained. "All of these journalists were arbitrarily arrested by the Americans, just as they continue to be arrested by the Iraqi government today."" http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2013/04/2013481202781452.html http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2013/04/201348120278145...

by falk 13y ago

tootie 13y ago

That isn't remotely the same thing.

twoodfin 13y ago

Would it stretch your moral intellect too far to identify a key distinction there? Namely, intent matters: The U.S., as far as anyone has demonstrated, does not set out to kill journalists because what they write is inconvenient.

_ak 13y ago
> The U.S., as far as anyone has demonstrated, does not set out to kill journalists because what they write is inconvenient. I remember that prior to the invasion of Iraq, the US said that any journalist that is not embedded with US troops is fair game. That does sound like they didn't mind killing journalists they don't control. This attitude also clearly shows in the bombing of the Al Jazeera offices in Baghdad, Bush's 2004 idea of bombing the Al Jazeera HQ in Qatar, or the attack on the Palestine Hotel.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  I remember that prior to the invasion of Iraq, the US said that any journalist that is not embedded with US troops is fair game. That does sound like they didn't mind killing journalists they don't control. The quote you're likely thinking of was from then-Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke literally as Baghdad was falling: Pentagon spokeswoman Clarke said of Baghdad on Tuesday, "It is not a safe place. You should not be there." [1] Whether journalists thought it would be a good idea to hang out in Baghdad while it was under coalition assault, the Bush administration clearly thought that would be an unsafe thing to do. That doesn't mean they "didn't mind killing journalists they don't control" or that they claimed anything about journalists being "fair game". [1] http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Baghdad-closer-to-collapse-Army-Marine-tanks-2656778.php#page-2 http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Baghdad-closer-to-collaps...
rada 13y ago
New York Times media correspondent David Carr: “If you add up the pulling of news organization phone records (The Associated Press), the tracking of individual reporters (Fox News), and the effort by the current administration to go after sources (seven instances and counting in which a government official has been criminally charged with leaking classified information to the news media), suggesting that there is a war on the press is less hyperbole than simple math.” AP president Gary Pruitt: "Longtime sources have stopped talking to the Associated Press in response to the Obama administration’s secret seizure of the wire service’s phone records. This chilling effect is not just at AP, it’s happening at other news organizations as well. Journalists from other news organizations have personally told me it has intimidated sources from speaking to them." Chief White House Correspondent for NBC News Chuck Todd: "You end up essentially criminalizing journalism when it comes to reporting on the federal government, particularly on national security. You know, I’ve had different conversations with people over the last week who are sitting there not quite comfortable having certain conversations on the phone." Would it stretch your moral intellect to google any of the above? The US has successfully criminalized real journalism so there is no need to kill. Not a whole lot better.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Now you've moved the goal posts from claims the U.S. "straight kills journalists" to some chilling effects from a variety of leak prosecutions. One can think the latter are a bad thing without drawing a parallel to regimes that murder journalists they don't like!
  - rada 13y ago
    The killing of journalists may be the most dramatic measure in the context of freedom of the press but it's hardly the only one, and it is absolutely fair to discuss the whole picture. For example, on this Freedom Of Press Index, Russia is far ahead of China which does not kill journalists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_an... I would also like to address your "some chilling effects" comment. Investigative reporters are only as good as their sources and the sources have been silenced. That's a nuclear winter, not "some chilling effects". Meta: is it really necessary to imply that whomever you are responding to is lacking in intellectual capacity? What's with all the "would it stretch your intellect to...", "one can think x without drawing a parallel to y..." and so on. If your arguments are strong, let them stand on their own.
falk 13y ago
The United States government traffics drugs such as heroin [1], has started wars under false pretenses to profit multi-national corporations [2] [3], backs death squads in Indonesia [4], tried to convince Martin Luther King Jr. to commit suicide [5], has conducted covert operations to dismantle and replace government structures across the world [6], has conducted experiments involving drugs like LSD on unwilling participants [7], is known to kidnap and torture people [8] [9], intercepts phone calls in the United States and collects every piece of information they can disregarding the constitution [10] [11] [12], performs drone strikes that kill innocent civilians [13], and kills American citizens without due process [14] [15]. Do you honestly believe they haven't killed any vocal opponents including journalists? If so, that is massively dangerous thinking. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_South... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war [4] http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/19/the_act_of_killing_new_film http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/19/the_act_of_killing_new... [5] http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/01/21/the-fbi-wrote-a-letter-to-martin-luther-king-telling-him-to-commit-suicide/ http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/01/21/the-fbi-wrote-a-lette... [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_and_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_and_the_United_States [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_el-Masri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_el-Masri [10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [11] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON [12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM [13] http://dirtywars.org http://dirtywars.org [14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki [15] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/us/us-acknowledges-killing-4-americans-in-drone-strikes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/us/us-acknowledges-killing... Edit: Saw another comment and did some more digging. Found a great article which I'll quote some of. You can find a link to it below. "On April 8, 2003, during the US-led invasion of Iraq, Al Jazeera correspondent Tareq Ayoub was killed when a US warplane bombed Al Jazeera's headquarters in Baghdad." "Disturbingly, more journalists were murdered in targeted killings in Iraq than died in combat-related circumstances, according to the group Committee to Protect Journalists." ""Between 2003 and 2010 more than 30 Iraqi journalists were detained and held in prisons in Iraq by the Americans," she explained. "All of these journalists were arbitrarily arrested by the Americans, just as they continue to be arrested by the Iraqi government today."" http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2013/04/2013481202781452.html http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2013/04/201348120278145...