9 ms·

There is pretty substancial technological gulf opening up between the "ruling class" and the "reasonably well educated folks" out there. This could be as disrup

There is pretty substancial technological gulf opening up between the "ruling class" and the "reasonably well educated folks" out there. This could be as disruptive and problematic as the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor. Porn filters will be of no concern whatsoever to anyone under 40 with the most rudimentary technical chops (and appetite for porn). What else will be banned? It is getting to the point where fearmongering and shameless populism and shilling for votes by politicians result in useless laws being enacted only to incriminate anyone at all, when the opportunity presents itself to make an example of somebody. I suspect this technological gap is going to get much worse before it gets better, if it does get better at all. The types of people who participate in the game of politics have very little in common with the types of people who have an understanding of the technical world. But can that last forever? Kids now live online with few exceptions, and a technical understanding of the world will hopefully become second nature to most people, eventually.

arethuza 13y ago
I suspect that this has nothing do to with filtering content, protecting the vulnerable or anything else in the "real world" - it's all about politicians who have no fundamental convictions or principles desperately casting about for any subject that might increase their visibility to earn them a promotion up the slippery pole.
- boothead 13y ago
  Although in this case they've pegged the problem as too much access to other kinds of slippery poles :-)
- dspillett 13y ago
  It is more specific than that. Mr Cameron has recently upset quite a few very influential bigots over the gay marriage thing (something to be applauded IMO) and is now trying to sweeten them back up ready for the next time he needs their vote or party donation by tackling an issue that they care about but which won't overly irritate too many other people. The porn access issue is a gift to him in this respect. I'm sure he knows the measures are going to be ineffective, if he doesn't he needs to sack a few advisers, but it is important for him to be seen to be "thinking of the children" on this issue.
MarcScott 13y ago
"What else will be banned?" This is what worries me the most. If there is going to be a government approved 'blacklist' it suddenly becomes very easy to block content that the politicians decide is unsuitable. It's a very slippery slope, and Cameron is standing at the top and lacing up his ice-skates.
- mcintyre1994 13y ago
  And given that the role of the filter is likely impossible for them to get fundamentally 'right', the cynic in me wonders how quickly acceptance of temporary blocks of non-pornographic content will happen, and how long before somebody might take advantage of that.
- wfn 13y ago
  Indeed - and this is not even a hypothecial (i.e. it is more than that): this is what happened in Denmark, m. ore or less, afaik. [references may appear later.] This mode of thought cannot be construed as a hyperbole.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    And Australia. http://www.news.com.au/news/internet-filter-threatens-warcraft-second-life/story-fna7dq6e-1225745297902 http://www.news.com.au/news/internet-filter-threatens-warcra...
  - kalms 13y ago
    Well, porn is not banned here in Denmark. You can see a supposedly complete list here: http://www.teleindu.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Oversigt-over-DNS-blokeringer-15-01-2013.pdf http://www.teleindu.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Oversigt-o... [PDF, Danish]
    - Svip 13y ago
      As you can see, the child pornography list is missing from that list. It was however leaked in 2008 with a date of February 2008: https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Denmark:_3863_sites_on_censorship_list,_Feb_2008 https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Denmark:_3863_sites_on_censorship... And as you can tell, it contains many more sites than the official document, including a Dutch bus rental service.
gahahaha 13y ago
> the most rudimentary technical chops Working as a high school teacher, I can tell you that it is far less common among kids to have those chops than you imagine...
- eksith 13y ago
  It's a subconscious equation between "Internet" and Facebook et al. When your first click or URL is to check these, the information you retrieve is effectively white-washed by the like/retweet cycle. I feel there might have been a gap since the introduction of Social Media which may have robbed a generation of its ability to work out the "Web" or the "Internet" for that matter. I mean, I grew up in the 90's in the days of Geocities (even before Wikipedia) and library computer access was most interesting when I couldn't reach a site. So how do I get around that? "Proxies" says an even geekier friend and now I'm scouring forums for info on configuring Netscape to use a proxy with the included IPs. At home, I got to use IRC and that turned out to be a fountain of knowledge (still before Wikipedia). I feel sorry for kids who never got to experience driving stick shift.
- frost_knight 13y ago
  Having just worked as a system administrator for a college for the past 5 years, I completely agree with gahahaha. I'd say less than 5% of the student body had any computer skill beyond "turn it on and fire up a web browser".
  - therobotking 13y ago
    Agreed. I think the difference is nowadays everything is very user friendly. There's no need for the kids to learn how to use a DOS prompt or know about IRQ values to get sound in games working. Apple's "it just works" phrase applies to so much that nobody needs to know much to get things done. I am around kids at work and their technical knowledge is amazingly limited. Who needs to know stuff when 'there's an app for that...'?
- ZeroGravitas 13y ago
  I'd imagine they'll learn fast when properly motivated. (Though to be honest, no-one has ever explained how this is all supposed to work. My UK 3G connection randomly stopped showing me some web sites, that were entirely non-porny, and I had to confirm my age via a credit card or something to remove this block. If you have to do the same thing on home internet then everyone will opt out eventually as the uselessness of it is pretty quickly apparent.)
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
Like most techies, you're focusing on the effectiveness. This is both missing the point and dangerously underestimating the intelligence of the people behind such measures. Just like most of the anti-terror security theater, it's not about being effective in any way, it's about slowly getting the general population to accept increasingly repressive measures and a tighter grip of the "ruling class" on society in general. Once filtering has been generally accepted, they can gradually start figuring out how to censor the things they really don't want us to see (and guess what, it isn't porn) without having to worry about further social or legislative hurdles. There is no technological gap between "us" and "them". There's a gap in political savvy between "them" and "us", and we're on the wrong side of that gap.
- marcuspovey 13y ago
  Exactly this.
- tossawayopinion 13y ago
  Idea 1: ignorant politicking; Idea 2: mass conspiracy. Is there evidence for either side?
  - TeMPOraL 13y ago
    IMO current democracy as a system of incentives supports Idea 1 much better than Idea 2. Weak evidence, but still.
  - mordae 13y ago
    It's not a conspiracy per se. It's more like a system of incentives that motivate this kind of behaviour. We have made the politicians into celebrities whoring for our votes so that they can get goodies from their sponsors. It's no longer about any actual politics on the top levels, politicians are trying to strike a balance between decisions that would bring them more votes and those that would bring them more benefits. I am not saying that's true for every one of them, nor that it's everywhere like that. But I feel that this happens frequently enough to cripple the system.
- 13y ago
ancarda 13y ago
>Kids now live online with few exceptions, and a technical understanding of the world will hopefully become second nature to most people, eventually. No. I've been enough debates with peers my age (17-18) who practically live online but their world consists of Facebook and YouTube. They assume content can be taken offline simply by hitting "delete". Their ignorance will shock you. What we need is better education of how the internet works, but of course, you only learn if your interested.
- Lewton 13y ago
  You don't have to learn or understand anything to circumvent these filters All the skills you need is to be able to mindlessly follow a guide Just like with the blocking of the pirate bay, most people will know someone who can help them circumvent it
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Well I am sure there will be a youtube tutorial about how to disable the porn filters in a couple of days after this goes into effect.
DanBC 13y ago
> Porn filters will be of no concern whatsoever to anyone under 40 with the most rudimentary technical chops (and appetite for porn). What else will be banned? Nothing is banned. The filters are voluntary for the end user. The filters are stupid, but please argue against what they actually are.
- Bosence 13y ago
  The filters are voluntary OPT OUT for the end user*. I know it seems insignificant, but it makes a big difference. Also, I am right in thinking, this hasn't been proposed as a bill yet to the house of commons/lords? I feel as Cameron has a long history of broken promises.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Compare a filter where the user has to opportunity to opt out and thus get access to everything they have access to today, with something like the Australian filter (no opt out) or the Chinese filter (no opt out). The filters already exist for many people using mobile technology - mobile phones with data plans or mobile broadband dongles have exactly what's being proposed. I agree that it is a big difference that the filters are opt-out. And I have no idea what websites will be caught up. Wikipedia? (See photographs on articles like Anal Bleaching or etc etc.) > Also, I am right in thinking, this hasn't been proposed as a bill yet to the house of commons/lords? I feel as Cameron has a long history of broken promises. It could be pushed through as a voluntary agreement with industry. "Self regulate or we'll regulate it for you". See the history of UK legislation around computers is scary. Reading some of the documents they clearly have clueful people giving them advice, but then you read what the politicians say and they're idiots.
    - warmwaffles 13y ago
      But why should I even need to opt-out? What good will come from this? > Compare a filter where the user has to opportunity to opt out and thus get access to everything they have access to today, with something like the Australian filter (no opt out) or the Chinese filter (no opt out). Oh hey, at least our filter wont be as bad as theirs right? Same stupid argument used with the NSA scandal.
pnathan 13y ago
> There is pretty substancial technological gulf opening up between the "ruling class" and the "reasonably well educated folks" out there. Pretty sure it's been there from the start. Read up on the EFF's founding.

arethuza 13y ago

I suspect that this has nothing do to with filtering content, protecting the vulnerable or anything else in the "real world" - it's all about politicians who have no fundamental convictions or principles desperately casting about for any subject that might increase their visibility to earn them a promotion up the slippery pole.

boothead 13y ago
Although in this case they've pegged the problem as too much access to other kinds of slippery poles :-)
dspillett 13y ago
It is more specific than that. Mr Cameron has recently upset quite a few very influential bigots over the gay marriage thing (something to be applauded IMO) and is now trying to sweeten them back up ready for the next time he needs their vote or party donation by tackling an issue that they care about but which won't overly irritate too many other people. The porn access issue is a gift to him in this respect. I'm sure he knows the measures are going to be ineffective, if he doesn't he needs to sack a few advisers, but it is important for him to be seen to be "thinking of the children" on this issue.

MarcScott 13y ago

"What else will be banned?" This is what worries me the most. If there is going to be a government approved 'blacklist' it suddenly becomes very easy to block content that the politicians decide is unsuitable. It's a very slippery slope, and Cameron is standing at the top and lacing up his ice-skates.

mcintyre1994 13y ago
And given that the role of the filter is likely impossible for them to get fundamentally 'right', the cynic in me wonders how quickly acceptance of temporary blocks of non-pornographic content will happen, and how long before somebody might take advantage of that.
wfn 13y ago
Indeed - and this is not even a hypothecial (i.e. it is more than that): this is what happened in Denmark, m. ore or less, afaik. [references may appear later.] This mode of thought cannot be construed as a hyperbole.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  And Australia. http://www.news.com.au/news/internet-filter-threatens-warcraft-second-life/story-fna7dq6e-1225745297902 http://www.news.com.au/news/internet-filter-threatens-warcra...
- kalms 13y ago
  Well, porn is not banned here in Denmark. You can see a supposedly complete list here: http://www.teleindu.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Oversigt-over-DNS-blokeringer-15-01-2013.pdf http://www.teleindu.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Oversigt-o... [PDF, Danish]
  - Svip 13y ago
    As you can see, the child pornography list is missing from that list. It was however leaked in 2008 with a date of February 2008: https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Denmark:_3863_sites_on_censorship_list,_Feb_2008 https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Denmark:_3863_sites_on_censorship... And as you can tell, it contains many more sites than the official document, including a Dutch bus rental service.

gahahaha 13y ago

> the most rudimentary technical chops Working as a high school teacher, I can tell you that it is far less common among kids to have those chops than you imagine...

eksith 13y ago
It's a subconscious equation between "Internet" and Facebook et al. When your first click or URL is to check these, the information you retrieve is effectively white-washed by the like/retweet cycle. I feel there might have been a gap since the introduction of Social Media which may have robbed a generation of its ability to work out the "Web" or the "Internet" for that matter. I mean, I grew up in the 90's in the days of Geocities (even before Wikipedia) and library computer access was most interesting when I couldn't reach a site. So how do I get around that? "Proxies" says an even geekier friend and now I'm scouring forums for info on configuring Netscape to use a proxy with the included IPs. At home, I got to use IRC and that turned out to be a fountain of knowledge (still before Wikipedia). I feel sorry for kids who never got to experience driving stick shift.
frost_knight 13y ago
Having just worked as a system administrator for a college for the past 5 years, I completely agree with gahahaha. I'd say less than 5% of the student body had any computer skill beyond "turn it on and fire up a web browser".
- therobotking 13y ago
  Agreed. I think the difference is nowadays everything is very user friendly. There's no need for the kids to learn how to use a DOS prompt or know about IRQ values to get sound in games working. Apple's "it just works" phrase applies to so much that nobody needs to know much to get things done. I am around kids at work and their technical knowledge is amazingly limited. Who needs to know stuff when 'there's an app for that...'?
ZeroGravitas 13y ago
I'd imagine they'll learn fast when properly motivated. (Though to be honest, no-one has ever explained how this is all supposed to work. My UK 3G connection randomly stopped showing me some web sites, that were entirely non-porny, and I had to confirm my age via a credit card or something to remove this block. If you have to do the same thing on home internet then everyone will opt out eventually as the uselessness of it is pretty quickly apparent.)

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

Like most techies, you're focusing on the effectiveness. This is both missing the point and dangerously underestimating the intelligence of the people behind such measures. Just like most of the anti-terror security theater, it's not about being effective in any way, it's about slowly getting the general population to accept increasingly repressive measures and a tighter grip of the "ruling class" on society in general. Once filtering has been generally accepted, they can gradually start figuring out how to censor the things they really don't want us to see (and guess what, it isn't porn) without having to worry about further social or legislative hurdles. There is no technological gap between "us" and "them". There's a gap in political savvy between "them" and "us", and we're on the wrong side of that gap.

marcuspovey 13y ago
Exactly this.
tossawayopinion 13y ago
Idea 1: ignorant politicking; Idea 2: mass conspiracy. Is there evidence for either side?
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  IMO current democracy as a system of incentives supports Idea 1 much better than Idea 2. Weak evidence, but still.
- mordae 13y ago
  It's not a conspiracy per se. It's more like a system of incentives that motivate this kind of behaviour. We have made the politicians into celebrities whoring for our votes so that they can get goodies from their sponsors. It's no longer about any actual politics on the top levels, politicians are trying to strike a balance between decisions that would bring them more votes and those that would bring them more benefits. I am not saying that's true for every one of them, nor that it's everywhere like that. But I feel that this happens frequently enough to cripple the system.
13y ago

ancarda 13y ago

>Kids now live online with few exceptions, and a technical understanding of the world will hopefully become second nature to most people, eventually. No. I've been enough debates with peers my age (17-18) who practically live online but their world consists of Facebook and YouTube. They assume content can be taken offline simply by hitting "delete". Their ignorance will shock you. What we need is better education of how the internet works, but of course, you only learn if your interested.

Lewton 13y ago
You don't have to learn or understand anything to circumvent these filters All the skills you need is to be able to mindlessly follow a guide Just like with the blocking of the pirate bay, most people will know someone who can help them circumvent it
tomjen3 13y ago
Well I am sure there will be a youtube tutorial about how to disable the porn filters in a couple of days after this goes into effect.

DanBC 13y ago

> Porn filters will be of no concern whatsoever to anyone under 40 with the most rudimentary technical chops (and appetite for porn). What else will be banned? Nothing is banned. The filters are voluntary for the end user. The filters are stupid, but please argue against what they actually are.

Bosence 13y ago
The filters are voluntary OPT OUT for the end user*. I know it seems insignificant, but it makes a big difference. Also, I am right in thinking, this hasn't been proposed as a bill yet to the house of commons/lords? I feel as Cameron has a long history of broken promises.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Compare a filter where the user has to opportunity to opt out and thus get access to everything they have access to today, with something like the Australian filter (no opt out) or the Chinese filter (no opt out). The filters already exist for many people using mobile technology - mobile phones with data plans or mobile broadband dongles have exactly what's being proposed. I agree that it is a big difference that the filters are opt-out. And I have no idea what websites will be caught up. Wikipedia? (See photographs on articles like Anal Bleaching or etc etc.) > Also, I am right in thinking, this hasn't been proposed as a bill yet to the house of commons/lords? I feel as Cameron has a long history of broken promises. It could be pushed through as a voluntary agreement with industry. "Self regulate or we'll regulate it for you". See the history of UK legislation around computers is scary. Reading some of the documents they clearly have clueful people giving them advice, but then you read what the politicians say and they're idiots.
  - warmwaffles 13y ago
    But why should I even need to opt-out? What good will come from this? > Compare a filter where the user has to opportunity to opt out and thus get access to everything they have access to today, with something like the Australian filter (no opt out) or the Chinese filter (no opt out). Oh hey, at least our filter wont be as bad as theirs right? Same stupid argument used with the NSA scandal.

pnathan 13y ago

> There is pretty substancial technological gulf opening up between the "ruling class" and the "reasonably well educated folks" out there. Pretty sure it's been there from the start. Read up on the EFF's founding.