4 ms·

"Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Who's putting up a wall now? It's funny that when it came to USSR and China, we believed

"Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Who's putting up a wall now? It's funny that when it came to USSR and China, we believed that people-to-people contact would improve relations. Why doesn't the same apply to Cuba and Iran?

dspillett 13y ago
I'd suggest that in the case of Iran it is a responsibility issue rather than a politics one. While they have just elected a more west-friendly president there are large parts of the country that are dangerous for outsiders. I'd guess the companies in question might prefer to lose a few sales rather than have the "you booked it, didn't you check where you were going first?" / "you should have warned as at booking time, it is all your fault!" argument. I'm not sure where Cuba fits in with my little theory though.
- yread 13y ago
  > there are large parts of the country that are dangerous for outsiders [citation needed]
  - readme 13y ago
    Perhaps outsiders should really say 'americans' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Iran Not all Iranians dislike Americans, but to say that there aren't any who would like you dead, is naive. The door swings both ways, though! BTW, as citizens of a democracy, we are all responsible for the geopolitical actions of our government. I mean, why would Iran dislike us? We didn't go help the UK overthrow their government and install a dictator or anything... OH, WAIT A SECOND. It's not like we invaded both their neighboring countries and set up permanent military bases.... OH, WAIT... The US does not have the moral high ground, but to think that just because you disagree with the government that most Iranians will just look past that... I don't think that's a safe bet.
    - discardorama 13y ago
      The Iranians are much better at distinguishing between the "government" and the "people"; they expect the same in return.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - readme 13y ago
        I did not say we should support our government. I said that we are responsible for it. This is something that too few Americans understand and the reason why we currently have a shitty one.
    - tome 13y ago
      > It's not like we invaded both their neighboring countries and set up permanent military bases Yeah, both their neighbouring countries who they were mortal enemies with. They should have been pleased about that, if anything. Their influence in Iraq has skyrocketed, one of the many reasons the Iraq war was such an idiotic idea.
- discardorama 13y ago
  >> there are large parts of the country [Iran] that are dangerous for outsiders. Are you kidding me? Have you seen the Rick Steve's special on Iran? I'm bringing RS up because anecdotal evidence wouldn't fly much around here. But please open your mind and take a look. Every account I've read of travel in Iran has been very positive. It is a much safer country to travel in than, say, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.
  - astrodust 13y ago
    Probably safer than some parts of Oakland and Washington D.C., too.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      DC is actually fairly safe nowadays (except perhaps for Northeast or Anacostia, but no one is going to end up there by accident).
      - astrodust 13y ago
        Relative to historical periods, yes, but it's still a war-zone compared to what I'm used to. The 2010 statistics indicate a homicide rate of 21.9 per 100,000 population. That's as bad as Brazil, worse than Kenya, and slightly worse than The Democratic Republic of Congo. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona..., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.). For perspective, the city I live in has a murder rate of 1.9, only slightly higher than the national average.
        true_religion 13y ago
        You can't really compare cities to entire countries unless those countries are city-sized. For example, while Brazil has a per capita homicide rate of ~23 per 100,000 the state of Alagoas has a homicide rate of 60.3, and the Federal District has one of 34.1. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brazilian_states_by_murder_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brazilian_states_by_mur...
Daniel_Newby 13y ago
For the same reason the US courtier class orchestrated the Vietnam Holocaust: the adult supervision class has to choose their battles. If a situation is not an existential threat to the US, the courtiers are given it as a playpen. Better to feed Iran into a meatgrinder than another city like Detroit.

dspillett 13y ago

I'd suggest that in the case of Iran it is a responsibility issue rather than a politics one. While they have just elected a more west-friendly president there are large parts of the country that are dangerous for outsiders. I'd guess the companies in question might prefer to lose a few sales rather than have the "you booked it, didn't you check where you were going first?" / "you should have warned as at booking time, it is all your fault!" argument. I'm not sure where Cuba fits in with my little theory though.

yread 13y ago
> there are large parts of the country that are dangerous for outsiders [citation needed]
- readme 13y ago
  Perhaps outsiders should really say 'americans' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#Iran Not all Iranians dislike Americans, but to say that there aren't any who would like you dead, is naive. The door swings both ways, though! BTW, as citizens of a democracy, we are all responsible for the geopolitical actions of our government. I mean, why would Iran dislike us? We didn't go help the UK overthrow their government and install a dictator or anything... OH, WAIT A SECOND. It's not like we invaded both their neighboring countries and set up permanent military bases.... OH, WAIT... The US does not have the moral high ground, but to think that just because you disagree with the government that most Iranians will just look past that... I don't think that's a safe bet.
  - discardorama 13y ago
    The Iranians are much better at distinguishing between the "government" and the "people"; they expect the same in return.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - readme 13y ago
      I did not say we should support our government. I said that we are responsible for it. This is something that too few Americans understand and the reason why we currently have a shitty one.
  - tome 13y ago
    > It's not like we invaded both their neighboring countries and set up permanent military bases Yeah, both their neighbouring countries who they were mortal enemies with. They should have been pleased about that, if anything. Their influence in Iraq has skyrocketed, one of the many reasons the Iraq war was such an idiotic idea.
discardorama 13y ago
>> there are large parts of the country [Iran] that are dangerous for outsiders. Are you kidding me? Have you seen the Rick Steve's special on Iran? I'm bringing RS up because anecdotal evidence wouldn't fly much around here. But please open your mind and take a look. Every account I've read of travel in Iran has been very positive. It is a much safer country to travel in than, say, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.
- astrodust 13y ago
  Probably safer than some parts of Oakland and Washington D.C., too.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    DC is actually fairly safe nowadays (except perhaps for Northeast or Anacostia, but no one is going to end up there by accident).
    - astrodust 13y ago
      Relative to historical periods, yes, but it's still a war-zone compared to what I'm used to. The 2010 statistics indicate a homicide rate of 21.9 per 100,000 population. That's as bad as Brazil, worse than Kenya, and slightly worse than The Democratic Republic of Congo. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona..., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.). For perspective, the city I live in has a murder rate of 1.9, only slightly higher than the national average.
      - true_religion 13y ago
        You can't really compare cities to entire countries unless those countries are city-sized. For example, while Brazil has a per capita homicide rate of ~23 per 100,000 the state of Alagoas has a homicide rate of 60.3, and the Federal District has one of 34.1. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brazilian_states_by_murder_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brazilian_states_by_mur...

Daniel_Newby 13y ago

For the same reason the US courtier class orchestrated the Vietnam Holocaust: the adult supervision class has to choose their battles. If a situation is not an existential threat to the US, the courtiers are given it as a playpen. Better to feed Iran into a meatgrinder than another city like Detroit.