4 ms·

So, let me get this straight: we abolish taxes, eliminate governments, and then ... paradise?

by czr80 13y ago

snitko 13y ago
It depends on how you define paradise. If paradise is the same as now, but without massively killing population of foreign countries with drones, keeping people in prison without trial and massively spying on your own people, then yes, it's going to be paradise. If your question is whether we can still have a civilized, stable and prosperous society, ask yourself would the demand for the good things that are currently provided by the government go? Would people still need roads and fire protection and security?
- falk 13y ago
  It's been working pretty well for Somalia I hear.
- unimpressive 13y ago
  This true seeker has some questions: How do you deal with petty crime? It would be impractical to set up a temporary court for every theft. How do you hold the criminals while they're prosecuted, if they're prosecuted? Anarchists generally don't like prisons. Do you have a jail as a temporary holding cell? How do you stop external forces from taking over? As the old adage goes "If you want peace, prepare for war.".
  - snitko 13y ago
    Those questions already have great answers. I can probably only recommend you a couple of authors like David D. Friedman and Stefan Molyneux, they all address the questions you asked. In short, yes, there will be courts and prisons. But in general, try to think of people from the middle ages wondering how would a country work without a king and what a crazy idea a democracy is. Or how stupid and primitive those troglodytes are for not believing in god. Or who's gonna pick cotton if we didn't have slaves. The problems you mention are not that difficult to solve. What's difficult is to show people that what they think is the best system out there is actually immoral.
    - unimpressive 13y ago
      >David D. Friedman and Stefan Molyneux Any particular volumes?
      - snitko 13y ago
        "The Machinery Of Freedom" by David D. Friedman discusses many aspects of workings of a society without a government. "Everyday Anarchy" by Stefan Molyneux demonstrates how we already live most of our lives in complete anarchy and how it actually works pretty good. Both are available for free.
      - falk 13y ago
        This guy is nothing more than an extremist. Ask him about his prison system and I'm sure he'll parrot how privatized prisons are the solution to our woes. Alas, they aren't. Be weary of someone trying to tell you that if we just did X everything would be so much better.
        unimpressive 13y ago
        There's a reason I described myself as a "true seeker". "No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world. I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker." - Mikhail Bakunin You're overestimating my risk for memetic infection and underestimating how much prior exposure I may have had to this subject. I often ask people for examples or book recommendations to learn more about them as much as I do to learn about a subject.[0] Besides, it couldn't possibly be worse than Mussolini's autobiography. [0]: An example. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6056707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6056707 The authors response was worth more to me than the response of other commentators because I find that socialists often like to say that X or Y society wasn't socialist. So as an exercise I asked what they consider a socialist society. (And I was genuinely interested in what they had to say, so I wasn't lying.)
        snitko 13y ago
        Just to clarify, I'm not a socialist by any measure, nor are the authors I mentioned.
- czr80 13y ago
  You need to wrestle with three issues: - Preventing the emergence of warring factions [1] - Enforcement of rules underlying market transactions (e.g., contract law, property rights, policing, etc.) - Underinvestment in public goods, such as basic research and national defense [2] There is zero evidence that these three things are addressable at scale without some type of government, although of course we are free to argue forever about the level of centralisation, marginal tax rates, precise scope of activities, and so on. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

So, let me get this straight: we abolish taxes, eliminate governments, and then ... paradise?

by czr80 13y ago

So, let me get this straight: we abolish taxes, eliminate governments, and then ... paradise?

It depends on how you define paradise. If paradise is the same as now, but without massively killing population of foreign countries with drones, keeping people in prison without trial and massively spying on your own people, then yes, it's going to be paradise. If your question is whether we can still have a civilized, stable and prosperous society, ask yourself would the demand for the good things that are currently provided by the government go? Would people still need roads and fire protection and security?

falk 13y ago
It's been working pretty well for Somalia I hear.
unimpressive 13y ago
This true seeker has some questions: How do you deal with petty crime? It would be impractical to set up a temporary court for every theft. How do you hold the criminals while they're prosecuted, if they're prosecuted? Anarchists generally don't like prisons. Do you have a jail as a temporary holding cell? How do you stop external forces from taking over? As the old adage goes "If you want peace, prepare for war.".
- snitko 13y ago
  Those questions already have great answers. I can probably only recommend you a couple of authors like David D. Friedman and Stefan Molyneux, they all address the questions you asked. In short, yes, there will be courts and prisons. But in general, try to think of people from the middle ages wondering how would a country work without a king and what a crazy idea a democracy is. Or how stupid and primitive those troglodytes are for not believing in god. Or who's gonna pick cotton if we didn't have slaves. The problems you mention are not that difficult to solve. What's difficult is to show people that what they think is the best system out there is actually immoral.
  - unimpressive 13y ago
    >David D. Friedman and Stefan Molyneux Any particular volumes?
    - snitko 13y ago
      "The Machinery Of Freedom" by David D. Friedman discusses many aspects of workings of a society without a government. "Everyday Anarchy" by Stefan Molyneux demonstrates how we already live most of our lives in complete anarchy and how it actually works pretty good. Both are available for free.
    - falk 13y ago
      This guy is nothing more than an extremist. Ask him about his prison system and I'm sure he'll parrot how privatized prisons are the solution to our woes. Alas, they aren't. Be weary of someone trying to tell you that if we just did X everything would be so much better.
      - unimpressive 13y ago
        There's a reason I described myself as a "true seeker". "No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world. I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker." - Mikhail Bakunin You're overestimating my risk for memetic infection and underestimating how much prior exposure I may have had to this subject. I often ask people for examples or book recommendations to learn more about them as much as I do to learn about a subject.[0] Besides, it couldn't possibly be worse than Mussolini's autobiography. [0]: An example. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6056707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6056707 The authors response was worth more to me than the response of other commentators because I find that socialists often like to say that X or Y society wasn't socialist. So as an exercise I asked what they consider a socialist society. (And I was genuinely interested in what they had to say, so I wasn't lying.)
        snitko 13y ago
        Just to clarify, I'm not a socialist by any measure, nor are the authors I mentioned.
czr80 13y ago
You need to wrestle with three issues: - Preventing the emergence of warring factions [1] - Enforcement of rules underlying market transactions (e.g., contract law, property rights, policing, etc.) - Underinvestment in public goods, such as basic research and national defense [2] There is zero evidence that these three things are addressable at scale without some type of government, although of course we are free to argue forever about the level of centralisation, marginal tax rates, precise scope of activities, and so on. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good