4 ms·

The NSA is the heart of the intelligence gathering apparatus of the US Military Industrial Complex. Like it or not, this bill will pass either tomorrow or anoth

by rb2e 13y ago

The NSA is the heart of the intelligence gathering apparatus of the US Military Industrial Complex. Like it or not, this bill will pass either tomorrow or another day, tacked on to another bill. It is strategic to the military and the country. There is no way in hell, this bill will not pass. You can scream, occupy the streets, protest, do whatever but it will not change a thing. It will go through. The US military Industrial Complex is vast. It lobby’s hard. To vote against it is to be called “un-American”- you know its BS but the talking heads will say it. Its powerful but that isn’t the point of this post. Truthfully, our governments have been spying on us for a long time. My country, the UK was reading the mail and telegrams long before the US. Then it was listening and recording phone calls. This is just a step up. As technology increased capabilities, the net has grown wider. From ECHELON to this. Civil liberties does not mean anything to them as the mindset has stayed the same no matter how much you may scream or complain, realistically it will not change a thing because at the end of the day, the country will have enemies and it needs an intelligence gathering capability. It won’t give a damn about our rights as it tries to secure itself.

infinity0 13y ago
Your post accomplishes nothing except to persuade people to give up the fight for civil liberties. You propose no solution or do you give any additional insight into developing a solution. Regardless of your actual intentions, you might as well be performing psychological propaganda. It's not helpful.
- rb2e 13y ago
  No offence is taken. I've been reading and studying Intelligence/espionage for a long time. Not the fancy James Bond stuff, just the boring average, mundane stuff of the past 100 years. I offer no solution because quite frankly, there isn't one. Unless you want to shut down the US military's and civilian intelligence gathering capabilities, it's not going to happen. There will always be reading your mail and listening in to your phonecalls. It is not going to stop. I am not for this, I love my privacy but I am simply pointing out what will happen, regardless of any action taken.
  - infinity0 13y ago
    You're repeating yourself, and so I'll repeat myself: it's not helpful. Unless you are prepared to give a mathematical proof of your claims, you ought to doubt them yourself. A priori, there is "no reason" (to mirror your argument) that life ought to have evolved 5 billion years ago on this planet. Likewise, there are lots of tech projects aimed at countering this sort of thing; saying they won't succeed only makes the participants more determined. :) Propaganda is a double-edged sword.
  - tokenizer 13y ago
    So with that said, what would you recommend the average foreign citizen do? I mean, every western country right now is a vassal to the states. I doubt my country can really go against US interests (Canada). Most educated people I talk to about these matters agree that the US is not a functioning democracy, but rather a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism > I am not for this, I love my privacy but I am simply pointing out what will happen, regardless of any action taken. Well if that's the case, what would you suggest a poor foreign person do?
  - rubinelli 13y ago
    This is what I don't understand. Why can't the US scale down this huge military complex? It has already served its purpose; it won World War II and defeated the Soviets in the defense budget chicken race, so how about calling mission accomplished and going home, now? Considering how many Americans die of heart attacks, and how many in terrorist attacks, wouldn't giving your citizens an actual first-world health care system a much better use of these gigantic black budgets?
- ksrm 13y ago
  It's accurate though, isn't it.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Just a thought: If people give up, the situation should get worse, and then people will act. It strikes me that we are not at enough of a tipping point yet. Giving up will get us to that tipping point quicker. People seem to tolerate a lot, until it gets excessive, well ,has an effect in their day to day lives. Right now, while what is happening is bad news, it doesn't touch most people's lives in a significant way, or a way they care about. Let the government run rampant, and we'll get to a tipping point quicker, then the majority will demand change. Also, the government sees some decent, so it will slightly change things to bring the heat down a degree or two, but not fundamentally change anything at all. So it plays a game of whack a mole to keep the over all heat manageable, and this can go on for decades. All the time people are just tinkering at the edges keeping various groups vaguely happy. So no one really pushed for fundamental change. So, why not just stand back and let the government hang it's self? Yes, people will suffer, but world history tells us that nothing substantial changes with out some suffering. Like I said, just a thought.
  - abecedarius 13y ago
    This is an old Marxist trope called "heighten the contradictions". I get the impression it hasn't historically led to better outcomes than working for improvement, though that's uh less than authoritative from me.

by rb2e 13y ago

infinity0 13y ago

Your post accomplishes nothing except to persuade people to give up the fight for civil liberties. You propose no solution or do you give any additional insight into developing a solution. Regardless of your actual intentions, you might as well be performing psychological propaganda. It's not helpful.

rb2e 13y ago
No offence is taken. I've been reading and studying Intelligence/espionage for a long time. Not the fancy James Bond stuff, just the boring average, mundane stuff of the past 100 years. I offer no solution because quite frankly, there isn't one. Unless you want to shut down the US military's and civilian intelligence gathering capabilities, it's not going to happen. There will always be reading your mail and listening in to your phonecalls. It is not going to stop. I am not for this, I love my privacy but I am simply pointing out what will happen, regardless of any action taken.
- infinity0 13y ago
  You're repeating yourself, and so I'll repeat myself: it's not helpful. Unless you are prepared to give a mathematical proof of your claims, you ought to doubt them yourself. A priori, there is "no reason" (to mirror your argument) that life ought to have evolved 5 billion years ago on this planet. Likewise, there are lots of tech projects aimed at countering this sort of thing; saying they won't succeed only makes the participants more determined. :) Propaganda is a double-edged sword.
- tokenizer 13y ago
  So with that said, what would you recommend the average foreign citizen do? I mean, every western country right now is a vassal to the states. I doubt my country can really go against US interests (Canada). Most educated people I talk to about these matters agree that the US is not a functioning democracy, but rather a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism > I am not for this, I love my privacy but I am simply pointing out what will happen, regardless of any action taken. Well if that's the case, what would you suggest a poor foreign person do?
- rubinelli 13y ago
  This is what I don't understand. Why can't the US scale down this huge military complex? It has already served its purpose; it won World War II and defeated the Soviets in the defense budget chicken race, so how about calling mission accomplished and going home, now? Considering how many Americans die of heart attacks, and how many in terrorist attacks, wouldn't giving your citizens an actual first-world health care system a much better use of these gigantic black budgets?
ksrm 13y ago
It's accurate though, isn't it.
alan_cx 13y ago
Just a thought: If people give up, the situation should get worse, and then people will act. It strikes me that we are not at enough of a tipping point yet. Giving up will get us to that tipping point quicker. People seem to tolerate a lot, until it gets excessive, well ,has an effect in their day to day lives. Right now, while what is happening is bad news, it doesn't touch most people's lives in a significant way, or a way they care about. Let the government run rampant, and we'll get to a tipping point quicker, then the majority will demand change. Also, the government sees some decent, so it will slightly change things to bring the heat down a degree or two, but not fundamentally change anything at all. So it plays a game of whack a mole to keep the over all heat manageable, and this can go on for decades. All the time people are just tinkering at the edges keeping various groups vaguely happy. So no one really pushed for fundamental change. So, why not just stand back and let the government hang it's self? Yes, people will suffer, but world history tells us that nothing substantial changes with out some suffering. Like I said, just a thought.
- abecedarius 13y ago
  This is an old Marxist trope called "heighten the contradictions". I get the impression it hasn't historically led to better outcomes than working for improvement, though that's uh less than authoritative from me.