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This is something real, tangible, and valuable that we can all actually do. All of this month I have felt powerless. This is something within everyone's power t

This is something real, tangible, and valuable that we can all actually do. All of this month I have felt powerless. This is something within everyone's power to do, and it can definitely help start the ball rolling back the way it came. It is pretty unfortunate that there is such a short window of time in which this information can be disseminated. I can imagine if there were a bit more time, this could really spread over the whole Web, as the SOPA outroar did. Anyway, we have to do the best we can, with the time we have.

icantthinkofone 13y ago
Yeah! That'll work! Just like the Occupy movement. Will there be beer?
- toyg 13y ago
  I hope you'll be downvoted to hell. HN should be about constructive criticism. We're all intelligent people, we can all tear down anything we put our mind at, but that doesn't mean that we should, or we wouldn't leave our house every day. I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too.
  - jehovahrova 13y ago
    Do you imagine your comment constructive?
    - toyg 13y ago
      If it can prevent the next wiseass from spouting his mouth, yes.
      - jehovahrova 13y ago
        "I hope you'll be downvoted to hell." "I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too." You're just an ass hiding his assyness behind false righteousness.
  - dominotw 13y ago
    We'll there is some merit to his comment(Despite the sarcasm). We have seen so many of these types of petitions/movements recently, only to be totally ignored by the gubment.
    - lukifer 13y ago
      If at first you don't succeed...
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Well now, I live in the UK. We don't have a written constitution, so the Powers That Be don't have to hack the legal system in quite the same way as as they do in the US (secret courts, secret injunctions, requirements for industry leaders to deny activity &c). However, we have absolutely no oversight and no way to gain oversight of the agencies that purport to be acting for our protection. It is difficult even to find out how much we are paying for these agencies. As our Prime Minister has recently demonstrated, our elective representatives have very little understanding of how the Internet actually works. There is a cross party consensus that the 'legal framework' is adequate. Maybe it is, but we don't know, and have no way of knowing. So I'd suggest taking what action you can within your system, because at least you have some avenues for change.
  - jacobrobbins 13y ago
    Saying you have absolutely no oversight in the UK is not true. I recently read David Omand's "Securing the State" which is the most informative book I have found on how to integrate secret intelligence into a democratic society. Most of the analysis in the book focuses on the UK system as he is a longtime member of the UK intelligence community. There is a detailed discussion of how to meet the challenges of keeping a secret intelligence system accountable while maintaining its secrecy. Specifically see your JIC (Joint Intelligence Committee) and its history of post-portem analysis after notable incidents such as the Iraq WMD misread. That was about political influence into the workings of intelligence, scope overreach is of course the issue of the day but presumably they could take a crack at it. In fact I have come to believe that your system is more well-managed than ours here in the US partially because it is a smaller country and hence easier to keep track of. See the Washington Post's article (before Snowden's revelations) on the mushrooming growth of myriad, largely redundant secret intelligence groups dispersed throughout various US agencies: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/ http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articl...
    - keithpeter 13y ago
      "...David Omand's "Securing the State"..." I shall add that to the summer reading list. I'm still dubious about how much accountability there actually is. For instance, the quote below is from a (generally favourable) Amazon review of the book referenced "The book is a bit weak in the realm of intelligence collection, but this is because this is a very sensitive area and Sir David was clearly trying to avoid stepping on toes." We are good at 'sensitive areas' in the UK. "...the mushrooming growth of myriad, largely redundant secret intelligence groups..." I suspect we have some of those as well but as projects/units within the main agencies.
cyphax 13y ago
I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.
- bargl 13y ago
  Actually you aren't powerless. You phone still works and you can call a senator. I don't know the legal ramifications of neglecting to mention that you aren't a member of the voting citizenry.
  - codyb 13y ago
    I cannot imagine there could exist legal ramifications for such an act. Perhaps if our senators hear from good citizens abroad who just wish not to be spied upon it will also weigh upon their conscience.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I don't know if I'm okay with non-Americans trying to interfere with our political process. They're certainly entitled to call, I suppose, but I hope our senators ignore them.
- mpyne 13y ago
  It sounds so surreal that I'm having to type this out this way, but: If you're on U.S. soil the 4th Amendment applies to you, no matter what your citizenship is.
oleganza 13y ago
I disagree, it is not something real or tangible. I'm all for defunding NSA, but it's not like a regular business which you can boycott by not giving them money. You have to go and ask permission from the government to not give the money (which they previously extracted from you by force for the "good of society") to some of the government agencies. It's pretty much like going to NSA itself and ask them to defund themselves. Voting is just a suggestion, it's not binding. Presidential candidates promise stuff, get votes and then are not obliged to deliver what was promised. It works the same way in every country today. Real and tangible way to defund NSA is this: 1. Withhold your taxes. 2. Protect yourself against the police and the military who will try to extract them by force (possibly by having crowdfunded guards). 3. Switch from using US Dollar as most of the money government generates comes from inflation (gov sells "bonds" that it will never repay in exchange for new money). Since all national currencies are inflationary and controlled by similar institutions all over the world, only Bitcoin is a good alternative. Or gold, if we can protect the vaults properly and build trust in a company that keeps it (but history shows it doesn't work). 4. Pay only what you think is fair and where you think it's fair. E.g. if you like social security, pay there directly as much as you want. Only voluntary payments will guarantee that people who you don't like get as much money as someone is willing to give them explicitly and voluntarily. You should not ask for permission to not participate in what you don't approve.
- falk 13y ago
  I found this Wikipedia article on tax resistance to be full of interesting information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_resistance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_resistance
- MisterWebz 13y ago
  Why wouldn't a boycott work? Instead of signing petitions that won't change a thing, try something that actually requires some real effort and look for alternatives to the current tech giants. For starters, stop using Facebook (gasp). When they realize that cooperating with the NSA will severely damage their reputation, they'll think twice before handing over user data this easily. Not to mention that if they realize their users are migrating, they might start lobbying against the NSA.

icantthinkofone 13y ago

Yeah! That'll work! Just like the Occupy movement. Will there be beer?

toyg 13y ago
I hope you'll be downvoted to hell. HN should be about constructive criticism. We're all intelligent people, we can all tear down anything we put our mind at, but that doesn't mean that we should, or we wouldn't leave our house every day. I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too.
- jehovahrova 13y ago
  Do you imagine your comment constructive?
  - toyg 13y ago
    If it can prevent the next wiseass from spouting his mouth, yes.
    - jehovahrova 13y ago
      "I hope you'll be downvoted to hell." "I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too." You're just an ass hiding his assyness behind false righteousness.
- dominotw 13y ago
  We'll there is some merit to his comment(Despite the sarcasm). We have seen so many of these types of petitions/movements recently, only to be totally ignored by the gubment.
  - lukifer 13y ago
    If at first you don't succeed...
keithpeter 13y ago
Well now, I live in the UK. We don't have a written constitution, so the Powers That Be don't have to hack the legal system in quite the same way as as they do in the US (secret courts, secret injunctions, requirements for industry leaders to deny activity &c). However, we have absolutely no oversight and no way to gain oversight of the agencies that purport to be acting for our protection. It is difficult even to find out how much we are paying for these agencies. As our Prime Minister has recently demonstrated, our elective representatives have very little understanding of how the Internet actually works. There is a cross party consensus that the 'legal framework' is adequate. Maybe it is, but we don't know, and have no way of knowing. So I'd suggest taking what action you can within your system, because at least you have some avenues for change.
- jacobrobbins 13y ago
  Saying you have absolutely no oversight in the UK is not true. I recently read David Omand's "Securing the State" which is the most informative book I have found on how to integrate secret intelligence into a democratic society. Most of the analysis in the book focuses on the UK system as he is a longtime member of the UK intelligence community. There is a detailed discussion of how to meet the challenges of keeping a secret intelligence system accountable while maintaining its secrecy. Specifically see your JIC (Joint Intelligence Committee) and its history of post-portem analysis after notable incidents such as the Iraq WMD misread. That was about political influence into the workings of intelligence, scope overreach is of course the issue of the day but presumably they could take a crack at it. In fact I have come to believe that your system is more well-managed than ours here in the US partially because it is a smaller country and hence easier to keep track of. See the Washington Post's article (before Snowden's revelations) on the mushrooming growth of myriad, largely redundant secret intelligence groups dispersed throughout various US agencies: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/ http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articl...
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    "...David Omand's "Securing the State"..." I shall add that to the summer reading list. I'm still dubious about how much accountability there actually is. For instance, the quote below is from a (generally favourable) Amazon review of the book referenced "The book is a bit weak in the realm of intelligence collection, but this is because this is a very sensitive area and Sir David was clearly trying to avoid stepping on toes." We are good at 'sensitive areas' in the UK. "...the mushrooming growth of myriad, largely redundant secret intelligence groups..." I suspect we have some of those as well but as projects/units within the main agencies.

cyphax 13y ago

I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.

bargl 13y ago
Actually you aren't powerless. You phone still works and you can call a senator. I don't know the legal ramifications of neglecting to mention that you aren't a member of the voting citizenry.
- codyb 13y ago
  I cannot imagine there could exist legal ramifications for such an act. Perhaps if our senators hear from good citizens abroad who just wish not to be spied upon it will also weigh upon their conscience.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I don't know if I'm okay with non-Americans trying to interfere with our political process. They're certainly entitled to call, I suppose, but I hope our senators ignore them.
mpyne 13y ago
It sounds so surreal that I'm having to type this out this way, but: If you're on U.S. soil the 4th Amendment applies to you, no matter what your citizenship is.

oleganza 13y ago

I disagree, it is not something real or tangible. I'm all for defunding NSA, but it's not like a regular business which you can boycott by not giving them money. You have to go and ask permission from the government to not give the money (which they previously extracted from you by force for the "good of society") to some of the government agencies. It's pretty much like going to NSA itself and ask them to defund themselves. Voting is just a suggestion, it's not binding. Presidential candidates promise stuff, get votes and then are not obliged to deliver what was promised. It works the same way in every country today. Real and tangible way to defund NSA is this: 1. Withhold your taxes. 2. Protect yourself against the police and the military who will try to extract them by force (possibly by having crowdfunded guards). 3. Switch from using US Dollar as most of the money government generates comes from inflation (gov sells "bonds" that it will never repay in exchange for new money). Since all national currencies are inflationary and controlled by similar institutions all over the world, only Bitcoin is a good alternative. Or gold, if we can protect the vaults properly and build trust in a company that keeps it (but history shows it doesn't work). 4. Pay only what you think is fair and where you think it's fair. E.g. if you like social security, pay there directly as much as you want. Only voluntary payments will guarantee that people who you don't like get as much money as someone is willing to give them explicitly and voluntarily. You should not ask for permission to not participate in what you don't approve.

falk 13y ago
I found this Wikipedia article on tax resistance to be full of interesting information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_resistance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_resistance
MisterWebz 13y ago
Why wouldn't a boycott work? Instead of signing petitions that won't change a thing, try something that actually requires some real effort and look for alternatives to the current tech giants. For starters, stop using Facebook (gasp). When they realize that cooperating with the NSA will severely damage their reputation, they'll think twice before handing over user data this easily. Not to mention that if they realize their users are migrating, they might start lobbying against the NSA.