5 ms·

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people di

by mpyne 13y ago

> It is just the pesky Internets that lets "domestic terrorists" like Occupy organize and share idea. Pesky little extremists forums like /r/news lets people discuss issues outside the mainstream media. Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. I mean, I sort of agree with your overall point, but if you want to see what 'domestic terrorists' could do before the Internet then you need not look any further than Weather Underground (70s-80s) or the various radical right-wing organizations that hit their peak in the 90s with the Oklahoma City bombing. You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". Well, take a number, guys, you can get in line with practically the whole rest of the country. But don't try to pin that on suppression of alternative media. Alternative media is out there, and it's been out there. The technology used to spread the message has changed, but the message has always been available. It's just that no one actually cares.

rdtsc 13y ago
> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". Well, take a number, guys, you can get in line with practically the whole rest of the country. I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about it. A bunch of people without a goal, disorganized, non-violent, and they bothered to label them as terrorist. Good Lord. What if they were more organized. What would those watching them be doing? Assassinating them with drones. > The technology used to spread the message has changed, but the message has always been available. It's just that no one actually cares. It is a mater of degrees. There used to be zines and meetings and what not. Getting a hold of a publisher, printing on dead trees, distributed that is a lot of effort than just posting a blog. So saying alternative media was there and it is there now. Is true. But it was never in the same quantity and availability. The latency was much higher as well. There aren't dark and white colors only. Only radicals vs authoritarians. People are on the continuum and drift across it. Availability of information is that makes that easier. One can become more informed or go further into conspiracy theory fantasy world. But overall it is a very positive development. > Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. There is nothing to blame there. They are simply following their incentives. Fox News, MSM and all others are large corporations in the business to make money (largely from advertising). They are not in the business of informing the public. They would operate according to basic incentives. This is very well described and researched in Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent work. The work is not new but it is still very valuable to read and very actual.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about it. A bunch of people without a goal, disorganized, non-violent, and they bothered to label them as terrorist. Good Lord. What if they were more organized. What would those watching them be doing? Assassinating them with drones. That's rather a mischaracertization. In the FBI documents about Occupy that were released through the FOIA, the overall peaceful nature of the protests is continually emphasized and the occasional militancy (in places like Oakland) is treated as atypical. Articles that suggest the FBI considered it to be a terrorist movement are not really being honest with their readers.
  - ferdo 13y ago
    That's not quite accurate. “These documents show that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security are treating protests against the corporate and banking structure of America as potential criminal and terrorist activity. These documents also show these federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America.” > http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html
    - selter01 13y ago
      "Potential"
- mpyne 13y ago
  > So saying alternative media was there and it is there now. Is true. But it was never in the same quantity and availability. The latency was much higher as well. There aren't dark and white colors only. That was all sort of my point though. The alternative media available to these groups is the best they've ever had it. Why is it that they can't organize anything? Their ancestors organized much more effective movements with much less effective means of communication.
coldtea 13y ago
>Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. Because "too liberal" for Fox just meant "too democrat". Hardly something that absolves MSM from the BS they are. MSM were the same officially santioned, partisan and corrupted sources, pre and after Fox. With the exception of some smaller outlets and the rare honest and piercing journalist, but that's not mainstream anymore.
smky80 13y ago
> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, Occupy was subverted from the inside much like the Tea Party. The fact that George Soros was involved is a big clue. The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis. Again, the role the media plays is one of spreading confusion and disorder. You have a large number of low-power people with a shared common interest -- preventing themselves from being "farmed" by a parasitic financial system -- and if they could be coordinated and work together, would suddenly become a powerful mass. The media works to prevent that coordination by spreading confusion as to the aims of the group, or even better getting the masses to fight amongst themselves.
- derefr 13y ago
  > The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis. Don't attribute to malice, stupidity. Dissolution of purpose is just what tends to happen when a movement gets popular as a fad for people to join--people who are there just to be cool, and to maybe be told what to do and help a tiny little bit--but with no particular greater goals in mind. You can't get people on-board with a specific purpose they don't care for, but maybe if you tell them some vague agreeable bullshit, they'll join. Guess what? Now all your movement is there for is vague agreeable bullshit. It was particularly bad with Occupy because the core members had a weird fetish for allowing the movement to be steered democratically--and so they basically asked what all the people who didn't care all that much wanted to do, took an average, and did nothing.
  - smky80 13y ago
    > Don't attribute to malice [what can be attributed to] stupidity. No, there really are people acting with malice out there. Pretending it is all just the result of stupidity just runs cover for those people.
Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
What killed occupy was the police forcibly removing them.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I lived right near DC. Trust me, it wasn't the police that killed Occupy.
ianstallings 13y ago
Why do people blame the MSM? Because they fail to do their job correctly, it's pretty simple. They get caught up in eyeballs instead of exposing the truth. Why break a big story about drones when you can rehash your thinly veiled opinion on some more popular topic?
- noarchy 13y ago
  These major media companies are just that. They are in the business of business, so what drives eyeballs to newspapers or television screens, or ears to the radio, is what will often take precedence. They're essentially giving the public what they want. The public doesn't want to know about dead babies in Pakistan. They're much more at ease hearing news about the latest celebrity baby (royal, or otherwise). The media could take responsibility for its lack of ethics, the population could decide that it wants those ethics, or things will just stay like they are.
  - Goronmon 13y ago
    They're essentially giving the public what they want. Is it what the public wants, or is it what the public that still regularly watches MSM news wants?
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Is there a difference, other than a smallish constant factor? If no one watched the MSM it wouldn't be the 'mainstream' media.
  - ianstallings 13y ago
    Well don't get me wrong, not every news story should be super serious. Some stories need to be light and distracting. Distraction is how we deal with life without going crazy. But lately the MSM has been treating both corporations and government with kid's gloves. I want them to be another balance to the traditional US institutions and they are failing. They should be outraged at the killings and the spying. But instead they change the topic. It's pathetic.
antitrust 13y ago
> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". It seems to me most political movements, whether Rush Limbaugh or Occupy Wall St or even Anonymous, are like this. They find things that aren't working. Great. Like you say, "Get in line." But a plan? It's either a variation of what we've already got, or a very idealistic "solution" that doesn't account for all the necessary parts of a society. It's why people like me are so cynical. It's not apathy. It's the opposite. It's heartbreak and as a result, withdrawal in frustration, confusion and self-loathing.

by mpyne 13y ago

rdtsc 13y ago

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". Well, take a number, guys, you can get in line with practically the whole rest of the country. I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about it. A bunch of people without a goal, disorganized, non-violent, and they bothered to label them as terrorist. Good Lord. What if they were more organized. What would those watching them be doing? Assassinating them with drones. > The technology used to spread the message has changed, but the message has always been available. It's just that no one actually cares. It is a mater of degrees. There used to be zines and meetings and what not. Getting a hold of a publisher, printing on dead trees, distributed that is a lot of effort than just posting a blog. So saying alternative media was there and it is there now. Is true. But it was never in the same quantity and availability. The latency was much higher as well. There aren't dark and white colors only. Only radicals vs authoritarians. People are on the continuum and drift across it. Availability of information is that makes that easier. One can become more informed or go further into conspiracy theory fantasy world. But overall it is a very positive development. > Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. There is nothing to blame there. They are simply following their incentives. Fox News, MSM and all others are large corporations in the business to make money (largely from advertising). They are not in the business of informing the public. They would operate according to basic incentives. This is very well described and researched in Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent work. The work is not new but it is still very valuable to read and very actual.

anigbrowl 13y ago
I never argued for supporting Occupy. The problems isn't about occupy, the problem is that FBI and their corporate partners thought they are dangerous enough to label them as "domestic terrorists". Think about it. A bunch of people without a goal, disorganized, non-violent, and they bothered to label them as terrorist. Good Lord. What if they were more organized. What would those watching them be doing? Assassinating them with drones. That's rather a mischaracertization. In the FBI documents about Occupy that were released through the FOIA, the overall peaceful nature of the protests is continually emphasized and the occasional militancy (in places like Oakland) is treated as atypical. Articles that suggest the FBI considered it to be a terrorist movement are not really being honest with their readers.
- ferdo 13y ago
  That's not quite accurate. “These documents show that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security are treating protests against the corporate and banking structure of America as potential criminal and terrorist activity. These documents also show these federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America.” > http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html
  - selter01 13y ago
    "Potential"
mpyne 13y ago
> So saying alternative media was there and it is there now. Is true. But it was never in the same quantity and availability. The latency was much higher as well. There aren't dark and white colors only. That was all sort of my point though. The alternative media available to these groups is the best they've ever had it. Why is it that they can't organize anything? Their ancestors organized much more effective movements with much less effective means of communication.

coldtea 13y ago

>Why does everyone blame the evil MSM? Fox News was started because the MSM was 'too liberal'. Because "too liberal" for Fox just meant "too democrat". Hardly something that absolves MSM from the BS they are. MSM were the same officially santioned, partisan and corrupted sources, pre and after Fox. With the exception of some smaller outlets and the rare honest and piercing journalist, but that's not mainstream anymore.

smky80 13y ago

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, Occupy was subverted from the inside much like the Tea Party. The fact that George Soros was involved is a big clue. The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis. Again, the role the media plays is one of spreading confusion and disorder. You have a large number of low-power people with a shared common interest -- preventing themselves from being "farmed" by a parasitic financial system -- and if they could be coordinated and work together, would suddenly become a powerful mass. The media works to prevent that coordination by spreading confusion as to the aims of the group, or even better getting the masses to fight amongst themselves.

derefr 13y ago
> The aim went from something fairly specific, like lets bring Goldman Sachs to justice for starters, the other major investment banks and the Federal Reserve ... to "let's get those one percenters!". Yeah, let's bring the dentists of the world to justice for their role in the housing crisis. Don't attribute to malice, stupidity. Dissolution of purpose is just what tends to happen when a movement gets popular as a fad for people to join--people who are there just to be cool, and to maybe be told what to do and help a tiny little bit--but with no particular greater goals in mind. You can't get people on-board with a specific purpose they don't care for, but maybe if you tell them some vague agreeable bullshit, they'll join. Guess what? Now all your movement is there for is vague agreeable bullshit. It was particularly bad with Occupy because the core members had a weird fetish for allowing the movement to be steered democratically--and so they basically asked what all the people who didn't care all that much wanted to do, took an average, and did nothing.
- smky80 13y ago
  > Don't attribute to malice [what can be attributed to] stupidity. No, there really are people acting with malice out there. Pretending it is all just the result of stupidity just runs cover for those people.

Andrew_Quentin 13y ago

What killed occupy was the police forcibly removing them.

mpyne 13y ago
I lived right near DC. Trust me, it wasn't the police that killed Occupy.

ianstallings 13y ago

Why do people blame the MSM? Because they fail to do their job correctly, it's pretty simple. They get caught up in eyeballs instead of exposing the truth. Why break a big story about drones when you can rehash your thinly veiled opinion on some more popular topic?

noarchy 13y ago
These major media companies are just that. They are in the business of business, so what drives eyeballs to newspapers or television screens, or ears to the radio, is what will often take precedence. They're essentially giving the public what they want. The public doesn't want to know about dead babies in Pakistan. They're much more at ease hearing news about the latest celebrity baby (royal, or otherwise). The media could take responsibility for its lack of ethics, the population could decide that it wants those ethics, or things will just stay like they are.
- Goronmon 13y ago
  They're essentially giving the public what they want. Is it what the public wants, or is it what the public that still regularly watches MSM news wants?
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Is there a difference, other than a smallish constant factor? If no one watched the MSM it wouldn't be the 'mainstream' media.
- ianstallings 13y ago
  Well don't get me wrong, not every news story should be super serious. Some stories need to be light and distracting. Distraction is how we deal with life without going crazy. But lately the MSM has been treating both corporations and government with kid's gloves. I want them to be another balance to the traditional US institutions and they are failing. They should be outraged at the killings and the spying. But instead they change the topic. It's pathetic.

antitrust 13y ago

> You know what killed Occupy? Occupy! No goal, no purpose, just "we hate the bankers and we hate the gub'mint!". It seems to me most political movements, whether Rush Limbaugh or Occupy Wall St or even Anonymous, are like this. They find things that aren't working. Great. Like you say, "Get in line." But a plan? It's either a variation of what we've already got, or a very idealistic "solution" that doesn't account for all the necessary parts of a society. It's why people like me are so cynical. It's not apathy. It's the opposite. It's heartbreak and as a result, withdrawal in frustration, confusion and self-loathing.