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This fascinates the hell out of me. It's simultaneously infuriating and awe-inspiring that something that's visible to the naked eye - stars - could be so comp

This fascinates the hell out of me. It's simultaneously infuriating and awe-inspiring that something that's visible to the naked eye - stars - could be so completely out of reach for us. However, with the recent work of Drs Alcubierre and White, it's clear that cracks are forming in the Impossibility of FTL travel. That leads me to believe the FTL is inevitable, because in the history of science, whenever we begin to see how maybe something could kinda, sorta, maybe exist, it's usually just a matter of time (perhaps centuries) until we crack it.

VLM 13y ago
"because in the history of science, whenever we begin to see how maybe something could kinda, sorta, maybe exist, it's usually just a matter of time (perhaps centuries) until we crack it." Like mermaids, magic, the halting problem, ESP, and religion?
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  To be fair, religion and the halting problem exist.
  - VLM 13y ago
    LOL you got me. More specifically, proof of any example in the general category of one, and a solution to the other. Mix and match with the above how you'd like.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Whether we can prove or disprove the existence of God before the heat death of the universe is undecidable?
      - VLM 13y ago
        To throw some fun fuel on the fire, which God, including conceptualizations that may not exist in our time yet. If a missionary religion is the correct true religion, and FTL exists anywhere in the galaxy, then by definition we should have already been contacted by missionaries and "civilized". Yet we're clearly not civilized, so at minimum at least one must not exist. So its not looking good for the FTL hopefuls. There is another fun one in that if an all powerful being exists, it seems a bit presumptuous for a mere moral to limit "it" to sublight. Therefore if the concept of FTL exists and an all powerful being exists, then FTL must exist in practice unless we're placing irrational limitations on an inherently unlimited being. Therefore if FTL can be imagined, but not implemented, that proves scientifically most conceptions of "god" do not exist; Or at least "it" is not all powerful. Unclear what impact that logic puzzler would have; probably just about none. That would make a much more fun rabble rousing article than "yet another star trek communicator / iphone analogy"
        gizmo686 13y ago
        >If a missionary religion is the correct true religion, and FTL exists anywhere in the galaxy, then by definition we should have already been contacted by missionaries and "civilized". Yet we're clearly not civilized, so at minimum at least one must not exist. So its not looking good for the FTL hopefuls. Not nessasarily. Assuming FTL does not imply time-travel, FTL still does not imply the ability to search the entire universe. The alien missionaries would still be limited by their sensors to scout X cubic-meters/year/ship. They would also have a limited supply of spaceships (that may grow exponentially with time).
        ars 13y ago
        You've limited yourself too much. You could have a non-missionary religion (like Judaism). You could have a missionary-religion that considers humans unsuitable for conversion. You could have a missionary-religion that puts some kind of restriction that says they have to wait for some trigger event before contacting humans. As for God why do you assume God is inside this universe? God could be causing the universe. (Like God would be the computer and the program, and we the results of running the program.)
      - gizmo686 13y ago
        Wouldn't that imply that we couldn't prove/disprove God's extisnese. If we could prove it, we need only wait until we prove it, then return our answer.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        It means we don't know if we can prove or disprove, because it may or may not take forever.
- CodeMage 13y ago
  That's odd, I could've sworn that he wrote -- and that you quoted him as having written -- "history of science" and also "could kinda, sorta, maybe exist".
- gizmo686 13y ago
  Mermaids: I have little doubt that genetic engineering will reach a point where we could create mermaids if we so choose. Magic: We call it technology. Halting problem: Closed time like curves can solve this. ESP: Brain implants to interact with external tech.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    I don't think that time travel is a neat solution to the Halting Problem.
- bitwize 13y ago
  Mermaids: SCUBA gear Magic: Any sufficiently advanced technology The halting problem: I got nothing for this ESP: neural interfaces Religion: given the above our descendants are destined to practically become gods, assuming they exist
- yk 13y ago
  > mermaids A matter of advanced genetics. ( See C. Stross "Neptune's Brood" ;) > magic "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke > the halting problem Any super Turing machine that can calculate busy beaver is sufficient. ( And creates a halting problem of its own.) > ESP Let me guess, live TV does not count? > religion I am pretty sure that we developed organized religion eons ago.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    I do wish to note as a matter of my own expertise that we don't have super-Turing machines.
Zigurd 13y ago
It may be real, but it may also be inaccessible at human scale. That is, the accelerating recession of distant objects might someday be fully explained, but there might be no way to use that knowledge to go from place to place in our solar system or galaxy.

VLM 13y ago

"because in the history of science, whenever we begin to see how maybe something could kinda, sorta, maybe exist, it's usually just a matter of time (perhaps centuries) until we crack it." Like mermaids, magic, the halting problem, ESP, and religion?

foobarbazqux 13y ago
To be fair, religion and the halting problem exist.
- VLM 13y ago
  LOL you got me. More specifically, proof of any example in the general category of one, and a solution to the other. Mix and match with the above how you'd like.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    Whether we can prove or disprove the existence of God before the heat death of the universe is undecidable?
    - VLM 13y ago
      To throw some fun fuel on the fire, which God, including conceptualizations that may not exist in our time yet. If a missionary religion is the correct true religion, and FTL exists anywhere in the galaxy, then by definition we should have already been contacted by missionaries and "civilized". Yet we're clearly not civilized, so at minimum at least one must not exist. So its not looking good for the FTL hopefuls. There is another fun one in that if an all powerful being exists, it seems a bit presumptuous for a mere moral to limit "it" to sublight. Therefore if the concept of FTL exists and an all powerful being exists, then FTL must exist in practice unless we're placing irrational limitations on an inherently unlimited being. Therefore if FTL can be imagined, but not implemented, that proves scientifically most conceptions of "god" do not exist; Or at least "it" is not all powerful. Unclear what impact that logic puzzler would have; probably just about none. That would make a much more fun rabble rousing article than "yet another star trek communicator / iphone analogy"
      - gizmo686 13y ago
        >If a missionary religion is the correct true religion, and FTL exists anywhere in the galaxy, then by definition we should have already been contacted by missionaries and "civilized". Yet we're clearly not civilized, so at minimum at least one must not exist. So its not looking good for the FTL hopefuls. Not nessasarily. Assuming FTL does not imply time-travel, FTL still does not imply the ability to search the entire universe. The alien missionaries would still be limited by their sensors to scout X cubic-meters/year/ship. They would also have a limited supply of spaceships (that may grow exponentially with time).
      - ars 13y ago
        You've limited yourself too much. You could have a non-missionary religion (like Judaism). You could have a missionary-religion that considers humans unsuitable for conversion. You could have a missionary-religion that puts some kind of restriction that says they have to wait for some trigger event before contacting humans. As for God why do you assume God is inside this universe? God could be causing the universe. (Like God would be the computer and the program, and we the results of running the program.)
    - gizmo686 13y ago
      Wouldn't that imply that we couldn't prove/disprove God's extisnese. If we could prove it, we need only wait until we prove it, then return our answer.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        It means we don't know if we can prove or disprove, because it may or may not take forever.
CodeMage 13y ago
That's odd, I could've sworn that he wrote -- and that you quoted him as having written -- "history of science" and also "could kinda, sorta, maybe exist".
gizmo686 13y ago
Mermaids: I have little doubt that genetic engineering will reach a point where we could create mermaids if we so choose. Magic: We call it technology. Halting problem: Closed time like curves can solve this. ESP: Brain implants to interact with external tech.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  I don't think that time travel is a neat solution to the Halting Problem.
bitwize 13y ago
Mermaids: SCUBA gear Magic: Any sufficiently advanced technology The halting problem: I got nothing for this ESP: neural interfaces Religion: given the above our descendants are destined to practically become gods, assuming they exist
yk 13y ago
> mermaids A matter of advanced genetics. ( See C. Stross "Neptune's Brood" ;) > magic "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke > the halting problem Any super Turing machine that can calculate busy beaver is sufficient. ( And creates a halting problem of its own.) > ESP Let me guess, live TV does not count? > religion I am pretty sure that we developed organized religion eons ago.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  I do wish to note as a matter of my own expertise that we don't have super-Turing machines.

Zigurd 13y ago

It may be real, but it may also be inaccessible at human scale. That is, the accelerating recession of distant objects might someday be fully explained, but there might be no way to use that knowledge to go from place to place in our solar system or galaxy.