4 ms·

The Baltic demographic situation is indeed very complex. The article does little justice to this. Someone has already raised the question of ethnic Russians an

The Baltic demographic situation is indeed very complex. The article does little justice to this. Someone has already raised the question of ethnic Russians and other non-Baltic origin leaving these countries. This section of the population actually have a very strong incentive to leave - they are considered non-citizen and have none of the EU privileges[1]. According to the same Wikipedia article, Latvia alone started out with 715k non-citizen in 1991, and now has 290,660 as of March 2011 census. Some left, some died and some became citizen, but the drop is huge and the outflow is intentional with the aim of increasing the proportion of "native" ethnic groups. At the same time, Russia has been taking in immigrants. The 1 million drop does not show the changes in underlying ethnic proportions. Russian politicians have not been as concerned with maintaining the ethnic composition, which they may start to look at as the riots fueled by ethnic tensions have become much more common. In any case, pure economic speculations don't do justice to that region. It's a very complex balancing act, with nationalists on both sides willing to chop of their nose to spite their face. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia)

kristaps 13y ago
> as the riots fueled by ethnic tensions have become much more common You seem to imply that there are already "riots fueled by ethnic tensions", care to point to an example?
- myth_drannon 13y ago
  Plenty... just a recent one is in Pugachyovo(Russians vs Chechens) The state media tries to suppress the news but Livejournal is full of blog posts with photos.
  - sologoub 13y ago
    Exactly. There are also examples from across the country that seem to flare-up periodically. Western media doesn't cover most of them as they tend to be smaller-scale scuffles.
  - derleth 13y ago
    UPI seems to have some coverage of that one: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2013/07/16/Veterans-paratroopers-to-patrol-Russian-city-after-ethnic-tensions/UPI-72401373947260/ http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2013/07/16/Veterans-para... (UPI is a fairly major Western news agency. Not as big as the AP, but a long way from being a Livejournal poster.)
- atsaloli 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night
  - userulluipeste 13y ago
    A following (and related) action of protest was attempted in Republic of Moldova: http://www.infotag.md/news-en/743300/ http://www.infotag.md/news-en/743300/
slc 13y ago
Mixing in the non-citizens in a discussion about demographics seems wrong. Most of the non-citizens are people around retirement age - factory workers who were sent in the country from other soviet countries, military families and so on. The cause for reduction in numbers of non-citizens is simple - they died. Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong, because the requirements to acquire citizenship are so easy. You just have to prove that you understand the Latvian language at a very basic level. If you can do that, then you get citizenship. Much easier than moving to a different country.
- jvrossb 13y ago
  That doesn't sound right - if I speak fluent Russian and I'm older than 15, it's probably easier for me to move to a Russian-speaking country (where I might have family) than learn Latvian. Especially if my social circle in Latvia is exclusively Russian speaking.
  - slc 13y ago
    If you're 15, then you have already received free government funded latvian language courses for 9 years in school. It's part of the curriculum. You'd have to be especially lazy to not be able to pass the citizenship exams.
    - sologoub 13y ago
      What if the parents chose to send the kid to Russian-language school? In any case, you have a point that if someone WANTED to integrate into Latvian society, they could. What I'm questioning is the desire. Having immigrated to US and adapted to that society, I'd have to say that moving "back" to the country where you already speak the language and identify with the society is quite a bit easier than to fully integrate into something you are not used to. It's all in the will of a person and the economic incentives to do so. For me in the US, I had the resolve and very strong financial against to be had if I followed through. If you take Switzerland as an example, their extremely high citizenship requirements are well supported by the high standard of living and long term benefits. Unfortunately, Latvia, together with the rest of the Baltic states does not yet have such a strong position. I suspect when it does, such complaints will end, as people will be happy to do the work for the reward.

kristaps 13y ago

> as the riots fueled by ethnic tensions have become much more common You seem to imply that there are already "riots fueled by ethnic tensions", care to point to an example?

myth_drannon 13y ago
Plenty... just a recent one is in Pugachyovo(Russians vs Chechens) The state media tries to suppress the news but Livejournal is full of blog posts with photos.
- sologoub 13y ago
  Exactly. There are also examples from across the country that seem to flare-up periodically. Western media doesn't cover most of them as they tend to be smaller-scale scuffles.
- derleth 13y ago
  UPI seems to have some coverage of that one: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2013/07/16/Veterans-paratroopers-to-patrol-Russian-city-after-ethnic-tensions/UPI-72401373947260/ http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2013/07/16/Veterans-para... (UPI is a fairly major Western news agency. Not as big as the AP, but a long way from being a Livejournal poster.)
atsaloli 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night
- userulluipeste 13y ago
  A following (and related) action of protest was attempted in Republic of Moldova: http://www.infotag.md/news-en/743300/ http://www.infotag.md/news-en/743300/

slc 13y ago

Mixing in the non-citizens in a discussion about demographics seems wrong. Most of the non-citizens are people around retirement age - factory workers who were sent in the country from other soviet countries, military families and so on. The cause for reduction in numbers of non-citizens is simple - they died. Also claiming that they have an incentive to leave the country seems wrong, because the requirements to acquire citizenship are so easy. You just have to prove that you understand the Latvian language at a very basic level. If you can do that, then you get citizenship. Much easier than moving to a different country.

jvrossb 13y ago
That doesn't sound right - if I speak fluent Russian and I'm older than 15, it's probably easier for me to move to a Russian-speaking country (where I might have family) than learn Latvian. Especially if my social circle in Latvia is exclusively Russian speaking.
- slc 13y ago
  If you're 15, then you have already received free government funded latvian language courses for 9 years in school. It's part of the curriculum. You'd have to be especially lazy to not be able to pass the citizenship exams.
  - sologoub 13y ago
    What if the parents chose to send the kid to Russian-language school? In any case, you have a point that if someone WANTED to integrate into Latvian society, they could. What I'm questioning is the desire. Having immigrated to US and adapted to that society, I'd have to say that moving "back" to the country where you already speak the language and identify with the society is quite a bit easier than to fully integrate into something you are not used to. It's all in the will of a person and the economic incentives to do so. For me in the US, I had the resolve and very strong financial against to be had if I followed through. If you take Switzerland as an example, their extremely high citizenship requirements are well supported by the high standard of living and long term benefits. Unfortunately, Latvia, together with the rest of the Baltic states does not yet have such a strong position. I suspect when it does, such complaints will end, as people will be happy to do the work for the reward.