6 ms·

In the white trash southern town where I grew up being a teacher at $35k/yr is considered one of the better jobs available. Military service is the best option

In the white trash southern town where I grew up being a teacher at $35k/yr is considered one of the better jobs available. Military service is the best option for young men who want to provide a living wage to their families, especially since no education is required. A few dozen doctors and dentists and veterinarians make bank and live like kings (not really joking... think giant sailboats docked at their beach mansions with 4 car garages), but a big part of the problem is that there is no middle class. There's a huge chasm between $35k and $350k, with no opportunities. In a community that is that poor even entrepreneurship seems like an impossible choice. How can you make money in that community when nobody has got 2 pennies to rub together? Another problem is that the culture does not value those things which empower young people to rise. Even among the top 5% of my high school class, I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship state university because they wanted to follow God and marry a nice boy from their church, or needed to stay home to help care and provide for members of their family. It's traditional and tribal, and looking off toward the horizon and going away for fancy schooling just doesn't rank highly on most peoples' priorities. In a community where many kids' parents attended the same high schools and the grandparents are local, wanting to leave is considered odd. The only reason I'm not still there today is that for some reason, as a nerd and social outcast, I rejected that path from an early age and my top priority out of high school was to get the hell out. School was hell, but I consider myself fortunate not to be working minimum wage jobs and living in a trailer park like two of my siblings.

zwieback 13y ago
Do you go back to your home town and, if so, what reaction do you get from smart kids that decided to stay?
- jurassic 13y ago
  I do go back to see my family and one teacher who had a big impact on me, but I'm not really good friends with anyone who stayed anymore. I came out to one of my oldest friends at Christmas, and they told me if I didn't leave my partner of 4 years and give up the gay lifestyle that I would burn in hell for eternity. This lecture was delivered in a crowded restaurant, with about a dozen people looking on. At one point in college I wrote an editorial for my hometown paper and the minibio was something along the lines of "ABC High School Valedictorian, Class of 200X, and current MIT student"; as a result the comments were all incredibly nasty and irrelevant to the content of the article, along the lines of "Who does this liberal/atheist bitch think she is?" The only positive comments were from old people saying "Wow, I've never seen anybody under 30 submit a piece to the paper." Truthfully, in person people are usually a lot more gentle (southern hospitality and all), but there's definitely an undercurrent of resentment after initial pleasantries. Sometimes it can be really awkward when I reciprocate their "It's so good to see you, and how are you doing?" and get a really depressing story back. (Got knocked up, laid off, foreclosed, etc.) Even people in my own family can be hostile. It feels like I can never give anybody any advice, ever, because "they can't all live perfect lives" like me. It sucks.
pnathan 13y ago
I don't suppose you can comment on the state/locale this was in? I have some personal connections to more rural/"redneck" areas, and I try to understand what makes those areas what they are.
- jurassic 13y ago
  Northwest Florida.
untog 13y ago
I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship state university because they wanted to follow God and marry a nice boy from their church, or needed to stay home to help care and provide for members of their family. Thing is, my success is not your success is not their success. If they lead happy and fulfilled lives in that way, is it wrong?
- jurassic 13y ago
  I get that, and I accept it. I'm just trying to explain my perspective on why people in these communities are unlikely to have much intergenerational mobility of the kind discussed in the article.
pc86 13y ago
In a "white trash southern town" isn't $35,000 a year likely to be solidly middle class? Just because there aren't a lot of $60-90,000 jobs doesn't mean that there is no middle class in a given area. I'm sure it broke a lot of teachers' hearts to see intelligent, gifted pupils throw away a better life to stay in a small town and get by on a HS diploma.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - jcater 13y ago
    That's not at all consistent with my experience. I'm from rural MS, but was educated in Memphis. I went back to a small town (population: 4,500) to run a business there. Before I moved on, we had built it up to just over 40 employees. Except for technical jobs (finding programmers was damn near impossible), general labor jobs were easy to fill with a variety of skill levels. The people we paid $35,000 were quite well off in that in that town. Hell, I rented one of the largest houses in the area when I moved, and only paid $800/mo (for 4,000 sqft). Nice two bedrooms ran $400-450, with three bedrooms running a hundred or so more. The single wide culture fell into three main camps, as far as I could see: 1) Those who bought land and put a single wide on it, so they could own their place. Usually the intention was to some day build a house. Not a horrible decision. 2) Those who were renting, and opted to have a smaller trailer on a lot of property (to be able to have horses, etc), instead of going for a real house in town. I can respect that decision too. 3) Those trapped in the "pay weekly" rent treadmill. I feel bad for this group, because they're paying as much or more overall for their trailer rent as a decent rental house ran. But it's almost as bad as the payday loan treadmill .. once you get on, it's hard to get off.
    - rdouble 13y ago
      I didn't notice your reply otherwise I wouldn't have deleted my post. In my home town in northwestern MN there is an agricultural experiment station which paid $35,000 for a programming job a couple years ago. I made a spreadsheet and even as a single guy with my car paid off I'd only be able to save about $700 a month on that salary. And that's as a renter. Granted, heating costs are much more expensive in northwestern MN than they are in the south and a rental is a bit more expensive than $400. That said, if I had kids to support I would have had to live in a trailer park and would have qualified for food stamps. I don't think that living in a rental and saving $700 a month is "solidly middle class" in the USA. Perhaps it is now, though, in a world of permanently diminished expectations.
mindcrime 13y ago
This sound very similar to where I grew up. I'm also from a "white trash" rural Southern area. And I grew up near the beach, so you saw huge contrast between the million dollar+ beach houses at the private end of the beach, and the rest of my county which was mostly rural, tobacco farms, timber logging for the paper companies, and Green Swamp[1]. I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship state university because they wanted to follow God and marry a nice boy from their church Uuuggghh... "follow God"... uggh. Makes me want to puke. I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a cult, no better than any of the others, just bigger. And due to its prevalence and ubiquity, more damaging. The only reason I'm not still there today is that for some reason, as a nerd and social outcast, I rejected that path from an early age and my top priority out of high school was to get the hell out. Same here. This is why I have mixed feelings about a lot of the commentary on poverty and education and what-not, however. On the one hand, a lot of my county does live in poverty and maybe that argues for some of the social intervention stuff that the Socialist / Progressive camps tend to push for. OTOH, I know from experience that, even growing up somewhere like that, if you want to get out and go build a better life, it is possible. Yeah, it means moving away, but I don't see why that should be considered such a big deal... in the course of human history, people have always moved to new areas to look for better opportunities. Not all will, but those who are motivated to do so, do. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Swamp_(North_Carolina) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Swamp_(North_Carolina)
- JRobertson 13y ago
  > Uuuggghh... "follow God"... uggh. Makes me want to puke. I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a cult, no better than any of the others, just bigger. And due to its prevalence and ubiquity, more damaging. Those kinds of comments belong on /r/athiesm not here. It's one thing to disagree with the choice of the person, the teachings of a particular branch, or even the idea of a God. But statements like yours are equivalent to Christians walking around claiming that all gays are evil and will burn in hell. They are stereotypical hate statements that lead to emotional responses instead of intellectual discussions.
  - gojomo 13y ago
ambiate 13y ago
Growing up in Hattiesburg, MS, innovation was stagnant. There were no technology related jobs other than Tech Support at Comcast(who I regarded as pure evil at the time). People do not want to leave Hattiesburg. It is completely foreign to them. They want to marry young, have children, and stay within a few blocks of their family. Move to California? You're going to fall into the ocean. Move to New York? Too much city. Move to Texas? Too hot. Each of those arguments is easily debunked. The humidity makes it hotter in MS. My life changing moment was taking a Greyhound to Wisconsin with $1,000 and starting my life over. Afterwards, I moved from place to place knowing I could make it where ever I ventured to. I have female friends in MS who got Masters/Ph.Ds and married the same year they got the piece of paper. Never used it once. It saddens me. Some of those people are brilliant beyond my abilities. Yet, they chose to follow the culture of the community. People are so miserable there, but it all by choice. My mother had cerebral palsy and received a check for $500/month. We lived in a trailer, and I made it out when I was ~21-23. I had no car, fallback, or family to depend on. I just had to take a risk and go with the flow. It pays off well now. I have offered people from MS jobs here or connections to jobs here. They would never take that bus.
- tootie 13y ago
  I know a family in an expensive neighborhood of an elite east coast city where the wife has spent the 5 years since receiving her PhD at home with her kids.
- nobodysfool 13y ago
  Why should you be sad about personal choices others make? Stop judging people, learn to accept them and you'll be a happier person. For those "masters" - they likely put a higher priority on family than on career, so the view that they 'did nothing with it' is idiotic. They just have different priorities than you.
  - ambiate 13y ago
    I wrote up this large spill about this being their personal feelings, financially drowning and overdrafting $500 each month. Husbands being the sole income providers ranging from $18k-29k a year for 2-4 kids. Jobs going at a very fast pace and very often not returning for a long period of time. It is much akin to building a home without a foundation. Reproducing without a security blanket for when times are harsh is an equation for depression. I agree, they have different priorities, but there is not one group (out of my 7) that is happy with their choice. They are riddled with embarrassment and guilt. You get to the gas pump with $1.50 to put in the tank... and have a clean consciousness that you were correct in prioritizing a large family over creating a foundation. Don't worry though, the doctors still write prescriptions of Oxycotin, Valiums, and a myriad of antidepressants to reinforce that they made the right choice! I judge them not, I relay their silent cries that they hide from the community, because they fear communal judgment. A far greater damnation than my single judgement in that type of atmosphere.
KevinEldon 13y ago
I don't disagree that culture is a real problem (and not just in rural Southern towns), but since I also grew up in a rural Southern town I think the lack of interest in education, the general focus on getting enough money to pay the rent and buy a case or two of beer for the weekend, and wealth displayed through big trucks and jet skis is a much deeper problem then "I'm top in my class, but aw shucks I need to stay home and love me some Jesus so I can find me a nice boy and take care of Mamma"... that does happen, and sometimes its not for the best, but it's not nearly as common as "I got a job in the factory after high school and check out this kick ass Mustang I got".

zwieback 13y ago

Do you go back to your home town and, if so, what reaction do you get from smart kids that decided to stay?

jurassic 13y ago
I do go back to see my family and one teacher who had a big impact on me, but I'm not really good friends with anyone who stayed anymore. I came out to one of my oldest friends at Christmas, and they told me if I didn't leave my partner of 4 years and give up the gay lifestyle that I would burn in hell for eternity. This lecture was delivered in a crowded restaurant, with about a dozen people looking on. At one point in college I wrote an editorial for my hometown paper and the minibio was something along the lines of "ABC High School Valedictorian, Class of 200X, and current MIT student"; as a result the comments were all incredibly nasty and irrelevant to the content of the article, along the lines of "Who does this liberal/atheist bitch think she is?" The only positive comments were from old people saying "Wow, I've never seen anybody under 30 submit a piece to the paper." Truthfully, in person people are usually a lot more gentle (southern hospitality and all), but there's definitely an undercurrent of resentment after initial pleasantries. Sometimes it can be really awkward when I reciprocate their "It's so good to see you, and how are you doing?" and get a really depressing story back. (Got knocked up, laid off, foreclosed, etc.) Even people in my own family can be hostile. It feels like I can never give anybody any advice, ever, because "they can't all live perfect lives" like me. It sucks.

pnathan 13y ago

I don't suppose you can comment on the state/locale this was in? I have some personal connections to more rural/"redneck" areas, and I try to understand what makes those areas what they are.

jurassic 13y ago
Northwest Florida.

untog 13y ago

I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship state university because they wanted to follow God and marry a nice boy from their church, or needed to stay home to help care and provide for members of their family. Thing is, my success is not your success is not their success. If they lead happy and fulfilled lives in that way, is it wrong?

jurassic 13y ago
I get that, and I accept it. I'm just trying to explain my perspective on why people in these communities are unlikely to have much intergenerational mobility of the kind discussed in the article.

pc86 13y ago

In a "white trash southern town" isn't $35,000 a year likely to be solidly middle class? Just because there aren't a lot of $60-90,000 jobs doesn't mean that there is no middle class in a given area. I'm sure it broke a lot of teachers' hearts to see intelligent, gifted pupils throw away a better life to stay in a small town and get by on a HS diploma.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- jcater 13y ago
  That's not at all consistent with my experience. I'm from rural MS, but was educated in Memphis. I went back to a small town (population: 4,500) to run a business there. Before I moved on, we had built it up to just over 40 employees. Except for technical jobs (finding programmers was damn near impossible), general labor jobs were easy to fill with a variety of skill levels. The people we paid $35,000 were quite well off in that in that town. Hell, I rented one of the largest houses in the area when I moved, and only paid $800/mo (for 4,000 sqft). Nice two bedrooms ran $400-450, with three bedrooms running a hundred or so more. The single wide culture fell into three main camps, as far as I could see: 1) Those who bought land and put a single wide on it, so they could own their place. Usually the intention was to some day build a house. Not a horrible decision. 2) Those who were renting, and opted to have a smaller trailer on a lot of property (to be able to have horses, etc), instead of going for a real house in town. I can respect that decision too. 3) Those trapped in the "pay weekly" rent treadmill. I feel bad for this group, because they're paying as much or more overall for their trailer rent as a decent rental house ran. But it's almost as bad as the payday loan treadmill .. once you get on, it's hard to get off.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    I didn't notice your reply otherwise I wouldn't have deleted my post. In my home town in northwestern MN there is an agricultural experiment station which paid $35,000 for a programming job a couple years ago. I made a spreadsheet and even as a single guy with my car paid off I'd only be able to save about $700 a month on that salary. And that's as a renter. Granted, heating costs are much more expensive in northwestern MN than they are in the south and a rental is a bit more expensive than $400. That said, if I had kids to support I would have had to live in a trailer park and would have qualified for food stamps. I don't think that living in a rental and saving $700 a month is "solidly middle class" in the USA. Perhaps it is now, though, in a world of permanently diminished expectations.

mindcrime 13y ago

This sound very similar to where I grew up. I'm also from a "white trash" rural Southern area. And I grew up near the beach, so you saw huge contrast between the million dollar+ beach houses at the private end of the beach, and the rest of my county which was mostly rural, tobacco farms, timber logging for the paper companies, and Green Swamp[1]. I knew people who turned down full tuition scholarships to the flagship state university because they wanted to follow God and marry a nice boy from their church Uuuggghh... "follow God"... uggh. Makes me want to puke. I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a cult, no better than any of the others, just bigger. And due to its prevalence and ubiquity, more damaging. The only reason I'm not still there today is that for some reason, as a nerd and social outcast, I rejected that path from an early age and my top priority out of high school was to get the hell out. Same here. This is why I have mixed feelings about a lot of the commentary on poverty and education and what-not, however. On the one hand, a lot of my county does live in poverty and maybe that argues for some of the social intervention stuff that the Socialist / Progressive camps tend to push for. OTOH, I know from experience that, even growing up somewhere like that, if you want to get out and go build a better life, it is possible. Yeah, it means moving away, but I don't see why that should be considered such a big deal... in the course of human history, people have always moved to new areas to look for better opportunities. Not all will, but those who are motivated to do so, do. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Swamp_(North_Carolina) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Swamp_(North_Carolina)

JRobertson 13y ago
> Uuuggghh... "follow God"... uggh. Makes me want to puke. I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a cult, no better than any of the others, just bigger. And due to its prevalence and ubiquity, more damaging. Those kinds of comments belong on /r/athiesm not here. It's one thing to disagree with the choice of the person, the teachings of a particular branch, or even the idea of a God. But statements like yours are equivalent to Christians walking around claiming that all gays are evil and will burn in hell. They are stereotypical hate statements that lead to emotional responses instead of intellectual discussions.
- gojomo 13y ago

ambiate 13y ago

Growing up in Hattiesburg, MS, innovation was stagnant. There were no technology related jobs other than Tech Support at Comcast(who I regarded as pure evil at the time). People do not want to leave Hattiesburg. It is completely foreign to them. They want to marry young, have children, and stay within a few blocks of their family. Move to California? You're going to fall into the ocean. Move to New York? Too much city. Move to Texas? Too hot. Each of those arguments is easily debunked. The humidity makes it hotter in MS. My life changing moment was taking a Greyhound to Wisconsin with $1,000 and starting my life over. Afterwards, I moved from place to place knowing I could make it where ever I ventured to. I have female friends in MS who got Masters/Ph.Ds and married the same year they got the piece of paper. Never used it once. It saddens me. Some of those people are brilliant beyond my abilities. Yet, they chose to follow the culture of the community. People are so miserable there, but it all by choice. My mother had cerebral palsy and received a check for $500/month. We lived in a trailer, and I made it out when I was ~21-23. I had no car, fallback, or family to depend on. I just had to take a risk and go with the flow. It pays off well now. I have offered people from MS jobs here or connections to jobs here. They would never take that bus.

tootie 13y ago
I know a family in an expensive neighborhood of an elite east coast city where the wife has spent the 5 years since receiving her PhD at home with her kids.
nobodysfool 13y ago
Why should you be sad about personal choices others make? Stop judging people, learn to accept them and you'll be a happier person. For those "masters" - they likely put a higher priority on family than on career, so the view that they 'did nothing with it' is idiotic. They just have different priorities than you.
- ambiate 13y ago
  I wrote up this large spill about this being their personal feelings, financially drowning and overdrafting $500 each month. Husbands being the sole income providers ranging from $18k-29k a year for 2-4 kids. Jobs going at a very fast pace and very often not returning for a long period of time. It is much akin to building a home without a foundation. Reproducing without a security blanket for when times are harsh is an equation for depression. I agree, they have different priorities, but there is not one group (out of my 7) that is happy with their choice. They are riddled with embarrassment and guilt. You get to the gas pump with $1.50 to put in the tank... and have a clean consciousness that you were correct in prioritizing a large family over creating a foundation. Don't worry though, the doctors still write prescriptions of Oxycotin, Valiums, and a myriad of antidepressants to reinforce that they made the right choice! I judge them not, I relay their silent cries that they hide from the community, because they fear communal judgment. A far greater damnation than my single judgement in that type of atmosphere.

KevinEldon 13y ago

I don't disagree that culture is a real problem (and not just in rural Southern towns), but since I also grew up in a rural Southern town I think the lack of interest in education, the general focus on getting enough money to pay the rent and buy a case or two of beer for the weekend, and wealth displayed through big trucks and jet skis is a much deeper problem then "I'm top in my class, but aw shucks I need to stay home and love me some Jesus so I can find me a nice boy and take care of Mamma"... that does happen, and sometimes its not for the best, but it's not nearly as common as "I got a job in the factory after high school and check out this kick ass Mustang I got".