6 ms·

I do want to note that some of these drugs have dramatically worse side effects than the illegal drugs for which they substitute. MDPV, in particular, has lead

by s_q_b 13y ago

I do want to note that some of these drugs have dramatically worse side effects than the illegal drugs for which they substitute. MDPV, in particular, has lead to a range of terrible effects, including psychotic states leading to cannibalistic attacks. Even the strong and broad legalization proposals, in which I can see the wisdom, acknowledge the need to control substances which regularly cause users to behave violently toward persons or property. To me, the designer MDPV and PCP would be the poster drugs for this category.

betterunix 13y ago
"MPDV, in particular, has lead to a range of terrible effects, including psychotic states leading to cannibalistic attacks." Can you cite more than anecdotes to support this? For what it's worth caffeine can also induce psychosis, like any other stimulant (which is what MDPV is). "Even the strong and broad legalization proposals, in which I can see the wisdom, acknowledge the need to control substances which regularly cause users to behave violently toward persons or property." We already have a model for that: alcohol.
- s_q_b 13y ago
  I'm not sure you could regulate these drugs in the same manner as alcohol, because they really are significantly worse in terms of both biochemistry and societal harm. (As an aside, certainly alcohol causes far worse damage, but only because it's far more prevalent.) Let's start with the biochemistry. MDPV is both a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor and a dopamine releaser. For most users, it provides a short and intense cocaine-like high lasting several hours before abating. However, in a significant minority of users, the dopamine receptors seem to get stuck in the "on" position. The resulting flood overwhelms lower behavioral centers and results in intense hallucinations of danger, psychomotor agitation, and uncontrolled aggression. See http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/ As to the attacks, here's a few, just from my hometown: "Man Who Stabbed Priest Was High on Bath Salts" http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/police-man-who-stabbed-priest-was-high-on-bath-salts-1.1116514 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/police-man-who-stabbed-prie... "Bath Salts Suspected in Head Gnawing Attack" http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/da-bath-salts-suspected-in-hawley-head-gnawing-attack-1.1373101 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/da-bath-salts-suspected-in-... "Scranton police have witnessed several incidents in recent months, however, and found that abuse of the disguised salts leaves a user with feelings of constant and extreme paranoia, imminent danger including threats on their lives, and hallucinations that have kept some hospitalized for up to five days. In one case, a man in a third story apartment believed to be using bath salts heard a knock on his door, according to Klein. He thought he was under attack, jumped out the window and shattered his ankle. “Previously, we had a guy that was injecting it at his house (on West Elm Street) in West Side, and he had his elderly mother and father locked in a bathroom,” Duffy said. “We had to have our negotiators come out, and he was actually injecting it as he was coming out of the door to talk to police.” “Two days ago, a complainant asked officers, ‘Can you see the two males across the street?’” Scranton Police Capt. Carl Graziano said Thursday. “He’s seeing them, and there’s nobody there.” On Wednesday, March 9, alleged bath salts abuser Ryan Foley, 25, of Scranton, was charged with breaking into St. Ann’s Basilica and stabbing and bludgeoning the Rev. Francis Landry. In a message to parishioners dated March 13, Landry wrote that he suffered “12 stab wounds and lacerations and at least six bruises” in the attack."
  - shabble 13y ago
    I think the main argument is along the lines of "If people could get [amphetamine/cocaine/drug of similar effect but better safety profile] legally and cheaply, they wouldn't be using random shit whose number-one design criteria was sidestepping the Analog Act" Obviously those other drugs are still harmful, but at least we have the benefit of research into their nature and specific harms. And DARE classes would probably be a lot more effective if they focused on which were the least bad.
    - s_q_b 13y ago
      All of that is true. Just like with sex education, we need the focus to be harm reduction, not some fantasy of total abstinence.
Nursie 13y ago
Not to be picky but I think it's MDPV, not MPDV. Could be wrong of course. IIRC most of the so-called cannibalistic attacks that were attributed to bath salts turned out not to be. For instance the famous Miami face-eating attack turned up no evidence of anything but pot in the guy's system - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack
- rdl 13y ago
  I don't know if that is less terrifying than a relatively obscure drug which turns people into cannibals.
- s_q_b 13y ago
  Quite right on MDPV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone The Miami incident was unrelated, but a casual googling will give you plenty of bath salts horror stories. In the town where I grew up, bath salts became a large problem. At one point, a man on a two day binge broke into a local monastery, got into bed with one of the priests, and held him at knife point until morning. Just a month ago, the federal government busted a producer in a nearby house holding seven kilos of the stuff. From work with community outreach and through relatives in law enforcement, I can tell you that one minor shift in the drug market radically altered the enforcement landscape. It was getting very bad for a while before the drugs were banned. I don't know whether our experience was unique or rare as a community. I suspect our experience was simply an accelerated version of what would have happened elsewhere. For some reason, we had little enforcement, wide distribution, and a burgeoning market in the stuff. We were among the first areas in the country to pass a municipal ordinance to ban the substances, and request help from the Federal government. I suspect that, as an area with harsh drug laws and strict enforcement of marijuana and cocaine, the balloon effect drove up interest in the designer chemicals. But that's just a hunch.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    >> I suspect that, as an area with harsh drug laws and strict enforcement of marijuana and cocaine, the balloon effect drove up interest in the designer chemicals. But that's just a hunch. I think you're probably right. Imagine what we could do in a non-prohibitionist atmosphere, where mainstream labs could research into stuff that gives people a buzz without being addictive or harmful...

by s_q_b 13y ago

betterunix 13y ago

"MPDV, in particular, has lead to a range of terrible effects, including psychotic states leading to cannibalistic attacks." Can you cite more than anecdotes to support this? For what it's worth caffeine can also induce psychosis, like any other stimulant (which is what MDPV is). "Even the strong and broad legalization proposals, in which I can see the wisdom, acknowledge the need to control substances which regularly cause users to behave violently toward persons or property." We already have a model for that: alcohol.

s_q_b 13y ago
I'm not sure you could regulate these drugs in the same manner as alcohol, because they really are significantly worse in terms of both biochemistry and societal harm. (As an aside, certainly alcohol causes far worse damage, but only because it's far more prevalent.) Let's start with the biochemistry. MDPV is both a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor and a dopamine releaser. For most users, it provides a short and intense cocaine-like high lasting several hours before abating. However, in a significant minority of users, the dopamine receptors seem to get stuck in the "on" position. The resulting flood overwhelms lower behavioral centers and results in intense hallucinations of danger, psychomotor agitation, and uncontrolled aggression. See http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/multimedia/bath-salts/ As to the attacks, here's a few, just from my hometown: "Man Who Stabbed Priest Was High on Bath Salts" http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/police-man-who-stabbed-priest-was-high-on-bath-salts-1.1116514 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/police-man-who-stabbed-prie... "Bath Salts Suspected in Head Gnawing Attack" http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/da-bath-salts-suspected-in-hawley-head-gnawing-attack-1.1373101 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/da-bath-salts-suspected-in-... "Scranton police have witnessed several incidents in recent months, however, and found that abuse of the disguised salts leaves a user with feelings of constant and extreme paranoia, imminent danger including threats on their lives, and hallucinations that have kept some hospitalized for up to five days. In one case, a man in a third story apartment believed to be using bath salts heard a knock on his door, according to Klein. He thought he was under attack, jumped out the window and shattered his ankle. “Previously, we had a guy that was injecting it at his house (on West Elm Street) in West Side, and he had his elderly mother and father locked in a bathroom,” Duffy said. “We had to have our negotiators come out, and he was actually injecting it as he was coming out of the door to talk to police.” “Two days ago, a complainant asked officers, ‘Can you see the two males across the street?’” Scranton Police Capt. Carl Graziano said Thursday. “He’s seeing them, and there’s nobody there.” On Wednesday, March 9, alleged bath salts abuser Ryan Foley, 25, of Scranton, was charged with breaking into St. Ann’s Basilica and stabbing and bludgeoning the Rev. Francis Landry. In a message to parishioners dated March 13, Landry wrote that he suffered “12 stab wounds and lacerations and at least six bruises” in the attack."
- shabble 13y ago
  I think the main argument is along the lines of "If people could get [amphetamine/cocaine/drug of similar effect but better safety profile] legally and cheaply, they wouldn't be using random shit whose number-one design criteria was sidestepping the Analog Act" Obviously those other drugs are still harmful, but at least we have the benefit of research into their nature and specific harms. And DARE classes would probably be a lot more effective if they focused on which were the least bad.
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    All of that is true. Just like with sex education, we need the focus to be harm reduction, not some fantasy of total abstinence.

Nursie 13y ago

Not to be picky but I think it's MDPV, not MPDV. Could be wrong of course. IIRC most of the so-called cannibalistic attacks that were attributed to bath salts turned out not to be. For instance the famous Miami face-eating attack turned up no evidence of anything but pot in the guy's system - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_cannibal_attack

rdl 13y ago
I don't know if that is less terrifying than a relatively obscure drug which turns people into cannibals.
s_q_b 13y ago
Quite right on MDPV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone The Miami incident was unrelated, but a casual googling will give you plenty of bath salts horror stories. In the town where I grew up, bath salts became a large problem. At one point, a man on a two day binge broke into a local monastery, got into bed with one of the priests, and held him at knife point until morning. Just a month ago, the federal government busted a producer in a nearby house holding seven kilos of the stuff. From work with community outreach and through relatives in law enforcement, I can tell you that one minor shift in the drug market radically altered the enforcement landscape. It was getting very bad for a while before the drugs were banned. I don't know whether our experience was unique or rare as a community. I suspect our experience was simply an accelerated version of what would have happened elsewhere. For some reason, we had little enforcement, wide distribution, and a burgeoning market in the stuff. We were among the first areas in the country to pass a municipal ordinance to ban the substances, and request help from the Federal government. I suspect that, as an area with harsh drug laws and strict enforcement of marijuana and cocaine, the balloon effect drove up interest in the designer chemicals. But that's just a hunch.
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> I suspect that, as an area with harsh drug laws and strict enforcement of marijuana and cocaine, the balloon effect drove up interest in the designer chemicals. But that's just a hunch. I think you're probably right. Imagine what we could do in a non-prohibitionist atmosphere, where mainstream labs could research into stuff that gives people a buzz without being addictive or harmful...