5 ms·

How many times do things like this have to happen before we decide to stop using the death penalty in the US?

by dangero 13y ago

anigbrowl 13y ago
Many people who support the death penalty are OK with a few false positives. Mind you, these people also think that 'it's a deterrent because you can't reoffend if you're dead' is a logical argument.
- Afforess 13y ago
  That's why we don't let people make the laws. People are myopic, panicky creatures. We elect representatives who make educated decisions for us. At least, that's how it works in the USA.
  - mcantelon 13y ago
    Like the decision to spy on us.
  - arjie 13y ago
    Ah yes, representatives. Representatives who are not people. That may well be true.
    - eli 13y ago
      You'd rather pass laws by ballot initiative? I encourage you to go check the public opinion polls on a couple of issues you care about.
      - arjie 13y ago
        Ha ha, no. I just found it amusing to imply that our representatives are not human.
  - oconnor0 13y ago
    It is, certainly, a relief that the representatives we elect aren't people.
  - greenyoda 13y ago
    In all the states that still have the death penalty, a majority of the elected representatives favors the death penalty (or at least they don't want to risk displeasing the voters by trying to get it abolished). Otherwise, the death penalty would no longer exist. And the same is true at the federal level, since there's still a federal death penalty[1]. Those people who are "OK with a few false positives" include legislators, the president, governors, district attorneys, prosecutors, police, etc. In some cases, DAs and other law enforcement officials have fought tooth and nail to prevent old cases from being reopened, since they feared being embarrassed by the truth more than they feared an innocent person being in prison or getting executed. (I think that if anyone deserves the death penalty, it's those who knowingly send innocent people to be executed to further their own careers. That should be considered murder.) Why shouldn't every case that was based on hair evidence (not just the 2000 that had technical legal errors) deserve to get a DNA test? If they still have the hair sample, they can test the hair's DNA against that of the prisoner. I'd suspect the reason they don't do this is that the government fears that exposing how fallible the legal system is will lead to massive public unrest. And then there's the whole corrupt plea-bargaining system that induces people to plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit because they're afraid of being hit with the death penalty if they go to trial and lose (which is a high probability for poor people represented by public defenders). All of these things are possible because of laws which our elected representatives have enacted and enforce. [1] http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-laws-providing-death-penalty http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-laws-providing-death...
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      the government fears There are (at least) 51 governments in the USA. For the nth time, it's not a monolithic entity. After all, we have a good numbers of states that have banned or imposed moratoria on the death penalty too, and those states obviously have no compelling interest in preventing scrutiny of its reliability. massive public unrest No chance. People (collectively speaking) are indifferent to perfectly well-documented failures of the legal system as it is.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    We elect representatives who make educated decisions for us. At least, that's how it works in the USA. Chance would be fine thing.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
citricsquid 13y ago
For anyone (hopefully everyone) against the death penalty there's a charity called Reprieve that do a lot of great work defending people on death row all around the world, they have some active cases in the US at the moment: http://www.reprieve.org.uk/ http://www.reprieve.org.uk/. They've been a part of the release of over 60 Guantanamo Bay detainees and have represented over 300 US death row inmates.
- Robin_Message 13y ago
  I've just decided to run a Spartan Race (5K obstacle race) in aid of Reprieve in September in case anyone wants to donate: http://justgiving.com/SpartanRobin http://justgiving.com/SpartanRobin
Taylorious 13y ago
Someone innocent being sentenced to death is a tragedy. However, there are innocent people who get charged with life sentences or many decades, and they end up dying in prison from natural causes, murder, suicide, etc. Even if you get rid of the death penalty there will still be some innocent people who die in prison, or they spend a good part of their life in prison before they are exonerated. Sure they get a big fat settlement, but who cares if you went into prison at 20 and came out at 70 a millionaire. Not worth it. The point is I'm not sure getting rid of the death penalty would statistically save that many innocent lives, as harsh as that sounds.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  Statistics don't matter, even if one innocent person is saved it's worth it. There is absolutely no advantage to the death penalty. I'm sure if you told any death row survivor (eg: Damien Echols) that you don't think it's worth abolishing it because their lives were over anyway they would have a strong disagreement. An important consideration is the way death row inmates are treated too, 10 years on death row is not good for a person so if they are found innocent they will have suffered serious damage (Damien Echols again), it's a complete waste. Damien Echols did an AMA on reddit last year: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/107jib/iam_damien_echols_death_row_survivor_ama/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/107jib/iam_damien_echo...
  - forsaken 13y ago
    It saves money. That's at least one advantage.
    - citricsquid 13y ago
      If you include the cost of appeals (which are part and parcel of the death penalty in the US) the cost of executing a death row inmate becomes greater than the cost of incarceration for life. For example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/20/california-death-penalty-execution-costs http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/20/california-death...
    - 13y ago
conroy 13y ago
Sadly, California had a chance to ban the death penalty last election via Proposition 34. The outcome wasn't even close, with 52% voting against the proposition [1]. Compared to other states, California executes very few criminals. Over the last 10 years, only three inmates have been killed. Compared to Texas which, over the same time frame, has executed 263 inmates [2]. However, California currently has the most inmates on death row (727) of any state. Since California doesn't execute the inmates it puts on death row, they end up costing the tax payers. An inmate on death row costs the state almost four times as much as a regular inmate ($175k versus $47k)[3]. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_34_%282012%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_34_%2820... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_people_executed_in_Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_people_executed_in_Tex... [3]: http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/death-penalty-california-stats-infographic http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/death-penalty-califo...

How many times do things like this have to happen before we decide to stop using the death penalty in the US?

by dangero 13y ago

How many times do things like this have to happen before we decide to stop using the death penalty in the US?

Many people who support the death penalty are OK with a few false positives. Mind you, these people also think that 'it's a deterrent because you can't reoffend if you're dead' is a logical argument.

Afforess 13y ago
That's why we don't let people make the laws. People are myopic, panicky creatures. We elect representatives who make educated decisions for us. At least, that's how it works in the USA.
- mcantelon 13y ago
  Like the decision to spy on us.
- arjie 13y ago
  Ah yes, representatives. Representatives who are not people. That may well be true.
  - eli 13y ago
    You'd rather pass laws by ballot initiative? I encourage you to go check the public opinion polls on a couple of issues you care about.
    - arjie 13y ago
      Ha ha, no. I just found it amusing to imply that our representatives are not human.
- oconnor0 13y ago
  It is, certainly, a relief that the representatives we elect aren't people.
- greenyoda 13y ago
  In all the states that still have the death penalty, a majority of the elected representatives favors the death penalty (or at least they don't want to risk displeasing the voters by trying to get it abolished). Otherwise, the death penalty would no longer exist. And the same is true at the federal level, since there's still a federal death penalty[1]. Those people who are "OK with a few false positives" include legislators, the president, governors, district attorneys, prosecutors, police, etc. In some cases, DAs and other law enforcement officials have fought tooth and nail to prevent old cases from being reopened, since they feared being embarrassed by the truth more than they feared an innocent person being in prison or getting executed. (I think that if anyone deserves the death penalty, it's those who knowingly send innocent people to be executed to further their own careers. That should be considered murder.) Why shouldn't every case that was based on hair evidence (not just the 2000 that had technical legal errors) deserve to get a DNA test? If they still have the hair sample, they can test the hair's DNA against that of the prisoner. I'd suspect the reason they don't do this is that the government fears that exposing how fallible the legal system is will lead to massive public unrest. And then there's the whole corrupt plea-bargaining system that induces people to plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit because they're afraid of being hit with the death penalty if they go to trial and lose (which is a high probability for poor people represented by public defenders). All of these things are possible because of laws which our elected representatives have enacted and enforce. [1] http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-laws-providing-death-penalty http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-laws-providing-death...
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    the government fears There are (at least) 51 governments in the USA. For the nth time, it's not a monolithic entity. After all, we have a good numbers of states that have banned or imposed moratoria on the death penalty too, and those states obviously have no compelling interest in preventing scrutiny of its reliability. massive public unrest No chance. People (collectively speaking) are indifferent to perfectly well-documented failures of the legal system as it is.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  We elect representatives who make educated decisions for us. At least, that's how it works in the USA. Chance would be fine thing.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

citricsquid 13y ago

For anyone (hopefully everyone) against the death penalty there's a charity called Reprieve that do a lot of great work defending people on death row all around the world, they have some active cases in the US at the moment: http://www.reprieve.org.uk/ http://www.reprieve.org.uk/. They've been a part of the release of over 60 Guantanamo Bay detainees and have represented over 300 US death row inmates.

Robin_Message 13y ago
I've just decided to run a Spartan Race (5K obstacle race) in aid of Reprieve in September in case anyone wants to donate: http://justgiving.com/SpartanRobin http://justgiving.com/SpartanRobin

Taylorious 13y ago

Someone innocent being sentenced to death is a tragedy. However, there are innocent people who get charged with life sentences or many decades, and they end up dying in prison from natural causes, murder, suicide, etc. Even if you get rid of the death penalty there will still be some innocent people who die in prison, or they spend a good part of their life in prison before they are exonerated. Sure they get a big fat settlement, but who cares if you went into prison at 20 and came out at 70 a millionaire. Not worth it. The point is I'm not sure getting rid of the death penalty would statistically save that many innocent lives, as harsh as that sounds.

citricsquid 13y ago
Statistics don't matter, even if one innocent person is saved it's worth it. There is absolutely no advantage to the death penalty. I'm sure if you told any death row survivor (eg: Damien Echols) that you don't think it's worth abolishing it because their lives were over anyway they would have a strong disagreement. An important consideration is the way death row inmates are treated too, 10 years on death row is not good for a person so if they are found innocent they will have suffered serious damage (Damien Echols again), it's a complete waste. Damien Echols did an AMA on reddit last year: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/107jib/iam_damien_echols_death_row_survivor_ama/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/107jib/iam_damien_echo...
- forsaken 13y ago
  It saves money. That's at least one advantage.
  - citricsquid 13y ago
    If you include the cost of appeals (which are part and parcel of the death penalty in the US) the cost of executing a death row inmate becomes greater than the cost of incarceration for life. For example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/20/california-death-penalty-execution-costs http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/20/california-death...
  - 13y ago

conroy 13y ago

Sadly, California had a chance to ban the death penalty last election via Proposition 34. The outcome wasn't even close, with 52% voting against the proposition [1]. Compared to other states, California executes very few criminals. Over the last 10 years, only three inmates have been killed. Compared to Texas which, over the same time frame, has executed 263 inmates [2]. However, California currently has the most inmates on death row (727) of any state. Since California doesn't execute the inmates it puts on death row, they end up costing the tax payers. An inmate on death row costs the state almost four times as much as a regular inmate ($175k versus $47k)[3]. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_34_%282012%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_34_%2820... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_people_executed_in_Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_people_executed_in_Tex... [3]: http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/death-penalty-california-stats-infographic http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/death-penalty-califo...