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> there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living [emphasis added] in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the

by dctoedt 13y ago

> there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living [emphasis added] in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the kind of bonds in a community that will cause people to make real sacrifices for their neighbors. 1. A sense that we share an on-going narrative can give rise to a shared sense of purpose or mission. That in turn can be a significant motivator of communal behavior, even in ordinary life. (EXAMPLES: + The founding of the modern state of Israel [many founders were secular or even atheistic]. + American exceptionalism and "manifest destiny." + Tradition in, e.g., military units and sports teams. + Scientific teams in pursuit of a discovery.) 2. QUESTION: Do we share any non-religious on-going narrative that can scalably and sustainably generate a sense of shared purpose or mission? Certainly different individuals are motivated by different things. Here's what sort of does it for me: It's plausible that we're all participating in a cosmic construction project that's been in progress for at least the past 13.8 billion years. In the words of an old story, we aren't just cutting stone to pay the bills, we're building a cathedral [0]. We can't know what the final outcome of the construction project will be, but if past trends are any indication, it'll be amazing. To me, that's pretty exciting. [0] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a....

rayiner 13y ago
Re: (1), it seems to me that, at least in my circle of friends (yuppies, basically), there is precious little narrative that gives rise to a shared sense of purpose. There are bonds of friendship, but between people of comparable social class and experience. There is nothing that binds me to the people in my neighborhoods, etc, at least nothing that compares to the depth of the ties my wife experiences in her religious community. Re: (2), it is an interesting open question to me. I don't yearn for the spiritual aspect of religion. I don't fear death, I don't lack any sense of purpose, etc. I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. I'll give an example: my wife had our daughter dedicated in her church. I have encountered nothing like that in the secular realm. Maybe you can offer a baby shower as an example, but our baby shower would involve other upper middle class people, not a broad cross-section of the people who live near us.
- selmnoo 13y ago
  It's worthwhile to note that it's unclear if religion is so decidedly behind a shared sense of purpose among the people. E.g. Pakistan, an Islamic nation with 97% of its populace being Muslim, is littered with social problems, there is very much a lack of shared sense of purpose. I think culture and history are better candidates for what unites people together. My apologies for getting off-topic, but if I may inquire: how is it, being atheistic and being married to a religious person? Isn't it difficult to work things out, when the other believes that you're destined to hell? To believe that there's nothing after death, and that there's a whole afterlife of heaven (or hell) is quite a gap. How do you reconcile with this, do you often try to convert her, or make her see things differently? > I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. There are atheist churches our there: http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ The one near me has quite a vibrant community. They do clean-ups, social work, etc. I have made many good friends there.
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > how is it, being atheistic and being married to a religious person? You didn't direct the question to me, but I was an agnostic married (then and now) to a fairly-serious Christian. These days I'm sort of in the believer camp, for reasons that I think are intellectually defensible [0]. I still don't subscribe to many of the official tenets of Christianity [1]. The key to that aspect of our marriage seems to be mutual love and -admiration --- which dictate respectful behavior --- while agreeing to disagree about certain matters theological. We each recognize that for all we know, both of us could be wrong. We see the wisdom of Benjamin Franklin's approach: Concerning the divinity of Jesus, Franklin wrote, a few weeks before his death at age 84, that, "it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, ... and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." [2]. ----------- > Isn't it difficult to work things out, when the other believes that you're destined to hell? Your premise won't always be true. I can't speak to what Muslims, Jews, etc., would believe, but most traditional Christians claim that even a deathbed conversion will be rewarded with eternal salvation. Such a Christian, married to an atheist, can thus hope that the loved one will still make it to heaven. While some Calvinist-style Christians believe in pre-destination [3], they're in the minority. As I understand it, Calvinists don't claim to know who will go to heaven or to hell. In liberal Christianity, there's a strain of universalist thought that says God would not punish finite sin with eternal damnation; therefore, everyone will make it to heaven eventually. Finally, not all religious people believe in heaven or hell; some (like me) simply don't know what happens after death. ----------- [0] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse.... [1] http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n.... [2] http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

by dctoedt 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

Re: (1), it seems to me that, at least in my circle of friends (yuppies, basically), there is precious little narrative that gives rise to a shared sense of purpose. There are bonds of friendship, but between people of comparable social class and experience. There is nothing that binds me to the people in my neighborhoods, etc, at least nothing that compares to the depth of the ties my wife experiences in her religious community. Re: (2), it is an interesting open question to me. I don't yearn for the spiritual aspect of religion. I don't fear death, I don't lack any sense of purpose, etc. I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. I'll give an example: my wife had our daughter dedicated in her church. I have encountered nothing like that in the secular realm. Maybe you can offer a baby shower as an example, but our baby shower would involve other upper middle class people, not a broad cross-section of the people who live near us.

selmnoo 13y ago
It's worthwhile to note that it's unclear if religion is so decidedly behind a shared sense of purpose among the people. E.g. Pakistan, an Islamic nation with 97% of its populace being Muslim, is littered with social problems, there is very much a lack of shared sense of purpose. I think culture and history are better candidates for what unites people together. My apologies for getting off-topic, but if I may inquire: how is it, being atheistic and being married to a religious person? Isn't it difficult to work things out, when the other believes that you're destined to hell? To believe that there's nothing after death, and that there's a whole afterlife of heaven (or hell) is quite a gap. How do you reconcile with this, do you often try to convert her, or make her see things differently? > I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. There are atheist churches our there: http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ The one near me has quite a vibrant community. They do clean-ups, social work, etc. I have made many good friends there.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > how is it, being atheistic and being married to a religious person? You didn't direct the question to me, but I was an agnostic married (then and now) to a fairly-serious Christian. These days I'm sort of in the believer camp, for reasons that I think are intellectually defensible [0]. I still don't subscribe to many of the official tenets of Christianity [1]. The key to that aspect of our marriage seems to be mutual love and -admiration --- which dictate respectful behavior --- while agreeing to disagree about certain matters theological. We each recognize that for all we know, both of us could be wrong. We see the wisdom of Benjamin Franklin's approach: Concerning the divinity of Jesus, Franklin wrote, a few weeks before his death at age 84, that, "it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, ... and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." [2]. ----------- > Isn't it difficult to work things out, when the other believes that you're destined to hell? Your premise won't always be true. I can't speak to what Muslims, Jews, etc., would believe, but most traditional Christians claim that even a deathbed conversion will be rewarded with eternal salvation. Such a Christian, married to an atheist, can thus hope that the loved one will still make it to heaven. While some Calvinist-style Christians believe in pre-destination [3], they're in the minority. As I understand it, Calvinists don't claim to know who will go to heaven or to hell. In liberal Christianity, there's a strain of universalist thought that says God would not punish finite sin with eternal damnation; therefore, everyone will make it to heaven eventually. Finally, not all religious people believe in heaven or hell; some (like me) simply don't know what happens after death. ----------- [0] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2005/05/why_i_call_myse.... [1] http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/redacting_the_n.... [2] http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination