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Thanks for sharing this. I'm glad to see a secular author who has a real appreciation of religion--he doesn't treat it as something that makes dimwitted people

Thanks for sharing this. I'm glad to see a secular author who has a real appreciation of religion--he doesn't treat it as something that makes dimwitted people happy, but as a training regimen designed for self-improvement, a struggle to develop good mental hygiene and psychologically safe communities, etc. If I read the article right, he is saying we need to develop these practices in a nonreligious context. I agree, but how can secular people and communities practice spirituality in a way that will cause these changes without sharing a common set of beliefs, practices and language?

mgkimsal 13y ago
It doesn't need to be called 'spirituality' - you hit it on the head before with 'self-improvement' It's possible for secular people to practice self-improvement, but why would we not share a common set of beliefs/practices/language? I think many self-improvement groups do just that - obvious ones like churches, but also non-obvious ones (book clubs, running clubs, etc).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 13y ago
  You can practice self improvement, but there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the kind of bonds in a community that will cause people to make real sacrifices for their neighbors. As an atheist married to a practicing Christian I am acutely aware of the fact that my wife's church offers a level of community, tied together by common beliefs and practices, that I've never found outside a religious context. Book clubs don't give you a shared way of life, and political organizations are linked by a common fight not a common way of living ordinary life. I can't think of anything in my secular urban world that is quite like the barn raisings my wife tells me about from the small, Christian, town in Iowa where she grew up. The closest thing I guess would be some sort of Habitat for Humanity project, but that's very different: focused outward rather than inward; charity rather than reciprocity.
  - dctoedt 13y ago
    > there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living [emphasis added] in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the kind of bonds in a community that will cause people to make real sacrifices for their neighbors. 1. A sense that we share an on-going narrative can give rise to a shared sense of purpose or mission. That in turn can be a significant motivator of communal behavior, even in ordinary life. (EXAMPLES: + The founding of the modern state of Israel [many founders were secular or even atheistic]. + American exceptionalism and "manifest destiny." + Tradition in, e.g., military units and sports teams. + Scientific teams in pursuit of a discovery.) 2. QUESTION: Do we share any non-religious on-going narrative that can scalably and sustainably generate a sense of shared purpose or mission? Certainly different individuals are motivated by different things. Here's what sort of does it for me: It's plausible that we're all participating in a cosmic construction project that's been in progress for at least the past 13.8 billion years. In the words of an old story, we aren't just cutting stone to pay the bills, we're building a cathedral [0]. We can't know what the final outcome of the construction project will be, but if past trends are any indication, it'll be amazing. To me, that's pretty exciting. [0] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a....
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Re: (1), it seems to me that, at least in my circle of friends (yuppies, basically), there is precious little narrative that gives rise to a shared sense of purpose. There are bonds of friendship, but between people of comparable social class and experience. There is nothing that binds me to the people in my neighborhoods, etc, at least nothing that compares to the depth of the ties my wife experiences in her religious community. Re: (2), it is an interesting open question to me. I don't yearn for the spiritual aspect of religion. I don't fear death, I don't lack any sense of purpose, etc. I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. I'll give an example: my wife had our daughter dedicated in her church. I have encountered nothing like that in the secular realm. Maybe you can offer a baby shower as an example, but our baby shower would involve other upper middle class people, not a broad cross-section of the people who live near us.
- tomsthumb 13y ago
  > why would we not share a common set of beliefs/practices/language? Religions are big things with many purposes. One of those purposes is self-improvement, and it would be useful for religious people and secular people to be able to communicate about the same set of routines using the same set of vocabulary and so on. However, this seems to introduce one of two strange situations. A religious person adopting purely secular sets of beliefs and practices may find some of this to conflict with their religion. They're moving from one intellectual/psychological/social context to another. While a secular person might be able to point at how rather non-optimal a set of mental machinery might be, it is also quite likely that a religious person and a secular one have decidedly different understandings of the utility function for 'optimal' (and at very deep psychological levels). On the other side of that coin, and probably more obviously, a secular person begin asked to acquire religious contexts and practices so as to communicate about this mental machinery would probably find these new shared beliefs/practices/language a bit "crufty". This would be totally understandable because all a secular person here would be after is 'self-improvement' whereas from above 'Religions are big things'. All of these mechanics are suddenly attempting to function outside of the context in which they developed. Diff'rent Strokes and all, ya' know
VLM 13y ago
"a training regimen designed for self-improvement, a struggle to develop good mental hygiene and psychologically safe communities, etc." Sounds like a "modern" K12 educational system.
colinm 13y ago
How about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
MaysonL 13y ago
1) Trust the universe 2) Clean house 3) Be of service

mgkimsal 13y ago

It doesn't need to be called 'spirituality' - you hit it on the head before with 'self-improvement' It's possible for secular people to practice self-improvement, but why would we not share a common set of beliefs/practices/language? I think many self-improvement groups do just that - obvious ones like churches, but also non-obvious ones (book clubs, running clubs, etc).

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 13y ago
You can practice self improvement, but there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the kind of bonds in a community that will cause people to make real sacrifices for their neighbors. As an atheist married to a practicing Christian I am acutely aware of the fact that my wife's church offers a level of community, tied together by common beliefs and practices, that I've never found outside a religious context. Book clubs don't give you a shared way of life, and political organizations are linked by a common fight not a common way of living ordinary life. I can't think of anything in my secular urban world that is quite like the barn raisings my wife tells me about from the small, Christian, town in Iowa where she grew up. The closest thing I guess would be some sort of Habitat for Humanity project, but that's very different: focused outward rather than inward; charity rather than reciprocity.
- dctoedt 13y ago
  > there is not really anything to tie people together in ordinary living [emphasis added] in the absence of religion. Self improvement groups do not create the kind of bonds in a community that will cause people to make real sacrifices for their neighbors. 1. A sense that we share an on-going narrative can give rise to a shared sense of purpose or mission. That in turn can be a significant motivator of communal behavior, even in ordinary life. (EXAMPLES: + The founding of the modern state of Israel [many founders were secular or even atheistic]. + American exceptionalism and "manifest destiny." + Tradition in, e.g., military units and sports teams. + Scientific teams in pursuit of a discovery.) 2. QUESTION: Do we share any non-religious on-going narrative that can scalably and sustainably generate a sense of shared purpose or mission? Certainly different individuals are motivated by different things. Here's what sort of does it for me: It's plausible that we're all participating in a cosmic construction project that's been in progress for at least the past 13.8 billion years. In the words of an old story, we aren't just cutting stone to pay the bills, we're building a cathedral [0]. We can't know what the final outcome of the construction project will be, but if past trends are any indication, it'll be amazing. To me, that's pretty exciting. [0] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/06/metanarratives_.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/09/creation_a_tita.... and http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2006/03/progress_hope_a....
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Re: (1), it seems to me that, at least in my circle of friends (yuppies, basically), there is precious little narrative that gives rise to a shared sense of purpose. There are bonds of friendship, but between people of comparable social class and experience. There is nothing that binds me to the people in my neighborhoods, etc, at least nothing that compares to the depth of the ties my wife experiences in her religious community. Re: (2), it is an interesting open question to me. I don't yearn for the spiritual aspect of religion. I don't fear death, I don't lack any sense of purpose, etc. I do lament not being able to participate in the communal aspect of religion. I haven't encountered any secular alternative. I'll give an example: my wife had our daughter dedicated in her church. I have encountered nothing like that in the secular realm. Maybe you can offer a baby shower as an example, but our baby shower would involve other upper middle class people, not a broad cross-section of the people who live near us.
tomsthumb 13y ago
> why would we not share a common set of beliefs/practices/language? Religions are big things with many purposes. One of those purposes is self-improvement, and it would be useful for religious people and secular people to be able to communicate about the same set of routines using the same set of vocabulary and so on. However, this seems to introduce one of two strange situations. A religious person adopting purely secular sets of beliefs and practices may find some of this to conflict with their religion. They're moving from one intellectual/psychological/social context to another. While a secular person might be able to point at how rather non-optimal a set of mental machinery might be, it is also quite likely that a religious person and a secular one have decidedly different understandings of the utility function for 'optimal' (and at very deep psychological levels). On the other side of that coin, and probably more obviously, a secular person begin asked to acquire religious contexts and practices so as to communicate about this mental machinery would probably find these new shared beliefs/practices/language a bit "crufty". This would be totally understandable because all a secular person here would be after is 'self-improvement' whereas from above 'Religions are big things'. All of these mechanics are suddenly attempting to function outside of the context in which they developed. Diff'rent Strokes and all, ya' know

VLM 13y ago

"a training regimen designed for self-improvement, a struggle to develop good mental hygiene and psychologically safe communities, etc." Sounds like a "modern" K12 educational system.

colinm 13y ago

How about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

MaysonL 13y ago

1) Trust the universe 2) Clean house 3) Be of service