5 ms·

> But with the cosmic sadness there is no going up one level, it's all there to ponder and still real. No snapping out of it. There are two mechanisms to cope

by skore 13y ago

> But with the cosmic sadness there is no going up one level, it's all there to ponder and still real. No snapping out of it. There are two mechanisms to cope with this without discarding or distorting it. Both are linked to accepting and expanding the comical (and cosmic) smallness of our existences. The first one I actually learned recently from reading Stephensons Anathem (which made me wonder if I'm reading that into his work or whether it was put in there from the same urge to cope). It's a bit hard to relay it without spoiling the book too much, but let's say it's related to the fact that even our understanding of the heat death of the universe is based on and limited by our human brains. There is hope in understanding it as a field that may still be ripe for discovery (top-of-my-head exmples: quantum immortality, parallel universes etc.) and that, as per usual, reality is always more fascinating, weird and grand than our brains can even begin to imagine. (And maybe these short term sprints of depression stem from being unable, for a short while, to muster an appropriate sense of wonder.) We're along for a ride and that ride is awesome. While the first one is going one step ahead, the second is taking one step back: Even the fact that we are able to form thoughts about the heat death of the universe means that we are incredibly gifted and that it's a gift we should not waste on despair. We are part of a universe that is to all appearances without inherent meaning or even sense. Fine. It's up to you to decide whether you want to dwell in and facilitate the static and the cold, or whether you want to pump your energy into showering it with the most fantastic entropy that the universe hasn't seen yet. You are here because thousands of generations of humans have found ways to cope and carry on and make today into a better tomorrow. If they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too.

kijin 13y ago
Just to play devil's advocate: > accepting ... reality is always more fascinating, weird and grand than our brains can even begin to imagine ... We're along for a ride and that ride is awesome. Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction? > If they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too. Sounds like conformism. What if all those people gave lots of damns about things that actually aren't worth a damn? Perhaps we should not waste our precious CPU cycles on caring about worthless things. How do you convince a mind that thinks on the scale of trillions of years to care about a few thousand years of human idiosyncrasy at all? I don't think it will be that easy. Daily hugs might actually work better, because a hug doesn't even attempt to engage the intellect and therefore doesn't need to respond to counterarguments.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  I absolutely guarantee that nobody, especially not someone depressed, is actually thinking on the scale of trillions of years. At that scale we stop being able to think and have to switch to mere computation instead. Existential despair is when your brain decides to think up some Profound Issue instead of just admitting it needs some exercise and a hug.
- driveby_bye_bye 13y ago
  I know you're doing devil's advocate. I liked this part of your comment: kijin>"What if all those people gave lots of damns about things that actually aren't worth a damn?" Because I certainly don't know if these things are worth a damn or not, and I generally don't trust people who believe that they do know. ---------------------- But this uncertainty about whether "any specific thing matters" cuts both ways, and I'm not sure it is clearly stated in another part of your comment: kijin>Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction? I think that there are 2 defeat/resignations in your hypothetical. The first defeat/resignation happens at the point where you become convinced that "you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination". The second defeat/resignation is the one that you pointed out, when you make the decision to pretend that here's some destination. ----------------------- skore>>it's related to the fact that even our understanding of the heat death of the universe is based on and limited by our human brains. Skore is raising the question that maybe we DON'T "know very well that there's not much to see at the destination." Some people believe that there is no way to know that "there is not much to see at the destination", and some people believe that there definitely is a worthwhile destination that is worth struggling towards. Religious people, anyone believing in transhumanism or "the singularity" to name the vast majority of humans. Some people would lump everyone who doesn't commit suicide into this category: "If you aren't getting off the train, you're moving towards station."
PavlovsCat 13y ago
Uhm. "Not giving a damn" doesn't cause depression I think. It's kinda the other way around? You know, caring too much and whatnot, or caring about things you can't change in a way as if you could. Personally, I find the heat death of the universe comforting. That is, considering human society as it is now: no matter what, there will be no boot stamping on a human face forever. Those who "become one with the dust" cannot loose, those into accumulation of power and posessions can't win. That's kinda neat, after all, like a fail-safe. It's also the only real solid argument for things like compassion and irony I know. You are here because thousands of generations of humans have found ways to cope and carry on and make today into a better tomorrow. You could also say I'm here because hunger feels bad and fucking feels good. "Better tomorrow" sounds so self-righteous, and while maybe people in the past were that high-minded, I'm currently not seeing it. The US can't even close Gitmo because the people they abducted and tortured might take it out on them, wtf? We still live in the stone age in so many ways, and that's the supposedly advanced west. A few years ago in Germany, a girl was raped in the inner city of a small town while people just walked by. And so on. It could be argued that even one look at a flower justifies all suffering in the world, but it could also be argued that just one kid dying in terror and pain does not justify existence of life on the planet. It really depends on the mood, and for me on wether I had breakfast yet. Remember when TV was thought to bring culture and information to people? Hah, me neither, but I take it there was a time when you could express such hope with a straight face. Then came the internet... yet the way 99% of the people talk on the web would get one hellbanned within 5 posts here. For every person with a book I see, I see 20 with their dumbification phone out. In the economy we consider shifting money to those who least deserve, but most desperately want it, as making money and admirable, and watch helplessly as our media, our food, just about fucking everything gets more and more consolidated into fewer and fewer trees of corporations and the corporations they own. All most people care about is what they need to do to get along, they just accept everything as given and go from there. And yeah, then there's the people dreaming of actual immortality in all this mess. Just look at them. They've been creeping me out since I was a kid, not once have I seen a scientist talk about this who seemed to be a balanced human being. Anyway, as Kafka wrote in his notebook, "Believing in progress does not mean believing that any progress has yet been made." But then again he also wrote this: "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid." But that's not what you're talking about, children dying in Africa, is it? Or people who just want to feel like they have some agency in their life playing Farmville? No, the universe is oh so exiting, it's an awesome ride... bleh. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes still stare at clouds or my hand or whatever and am simply amazed. But a sense of wonder is only one part of the story, the other part is human society, which is nowhere near the awesome complex miracle the universe is, but often rather banal, predictable, suicidal on good days and murderous on bad ones, with ads everywhere, just in case someone has an actual thought in a quiet minute. I still agree that one should not give up, if that can be avoided. But I disagree that "if they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too." -- so many people didn't figure anything out (how many natives are basically dying from depression in reservations?), and if they couldn't, why should I be able to? We live on a planet where Stalin and Hitler and Mao actually happened, where the US is actually a thing, and where there is no reason to believe power, control and deception will not be absolute and insubvertible one day -- until the heat death of the universe, that is. People who don't give up do that for themselves; they don't don't owe it to anyone. Maybe to the people who love them, maybe to themselves, but not to any old random schmuck of the past. I think there is no logical argument you could make for why people "have" to be happy and not just mope or become criminals, and hugs are really as good as it gets.

by skore 13y ago

kijin 13y ago

Just to play devil's advocate: > accepting ... reality is always more fascinating, weird and grand than our brains can even begin to imagine ... We're along for a ride and that ride is awesome. Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction? > If they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too. Sounds like conformism. What if all those people gave lots of damns about things that actually aren't worth a damn? Perhaps we should not waste our precious CPU cycles on caring about worthless things. How do you convince a mind that thinks on the scale of trillions of years to care about a few thousand years of human idiosyncrasy at all? I don't think it will be that easy. Daily hugs might actually work better, because a hug doesn't even attempt to engage the intellect and therefore doesn't need to respond to counterarguments.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
I absolutely guarantee that nobody, especially not someone depressed, is actually thinking on the scale of trillions of years. At that scale we stop being able to think and have to switch to mere computation instead. Existential despair is when your brain decides to think up some Profound Issue instead of just admitting it needs some exercise and a hug.
driveby_bye_bye 13y ago
I know you're doing devil's advocate. I liked this part of your comment: kijin>"What if all those people gave lots of damns about things that actually aren't worth a damn?" Because I certainly don't know if these things are worth a damn or not, and I generally don't trust people who believe that they do know. ---------------------- But this uncertainty about whether "any specific thing matters" cuts both ways, and I'm not sure it is clearly stated in another part of your comment: kijin>Sounds like defeatism and resignation. Why resign yourself to the "ride" and pretend that there's something nice about the long, arduous journey when you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination, or if you believe that everyone is riding in the wrong direction? I think that there are 2 defeat/resignations in your hypothetical. The first defeat/resignation happens at the point where you become convinced that "you know very well that there's not much to see at the destination". The second defeat/resignation is the one that you pointed out, when you make the decision to pretend that here's some destination. ----------------------- skore>>it's related to the fact that even our understanding of the heat death of the universe is based on and limited by our human brains. Skore is raising the question that maybe we DON'T "know very well that there's not much to see at the destination." Some people believe that there is no way to know that "there is not much to see at the destination", and some people believe that there definitely is a worthwhile destination that is worth struggling towards. Religious people, anyone believing in transhumanism or "the singularity" to name the vast majority of humans. Some people would lump everyone who doesn't commit suicide into this category: "If you aren't getting off the train, you're moving towards station."

PavlovsCat 13y ago

Uhm. "Not giving a damn" doesn't cause depression I think. It's kinda the other way around? You know, caring too much and whatnot, or caring about things you can't change in a way as if you could. Personally, I find the heat death of the universe comforting. That is, considering human society as it is now: no matter what, there will be no boot stamping on a human face forever. Those who "become one with the dust" cannot loose, those into accumulation of power and posessions can't win. That's kinda neat, after all, like a fail-safe. It's also the only real solid argument for things like compassion and irony I know. You are here because thousands of generations of humans have found ways to cope and carry on and make today into a better tomorrow. You could also say I'm here because hunger feels bad and fucking feels good. "Better tomorrow" sounds so self-righteous, and while maybe people in the past were that high-minded, I'm currently not seeing it. The US can't even close Gitmo because the people they abducted and tortured might take it out on them, wtf? We still live in the stone age in so many ways, and that's the supposedly advanced west. A few years ago in Germany, a girl was raped in the inner city of a small town while people just walked by. And so on. It could be argued that even one look at a flower justifies all suffering in the world, but it could also be argued that just one kid dying in terror and pain does not justify existence of life on the planet. It really depends on the mood, and for me on wether I had breakfast yet. Remember when TV was thought to bring culture and information to people? Hah, me neither, but I take it there was a time when you could express such hope with a straight face. Then came the internet... yet the way 99% of the people talk on the web would get one hellbanned within 5 posts here. For every person with a book I see, I see 20 with their dumbification phone out. In the economy we consider shifting money to those who least deserve, but most desperately want it, as making money and admirable, and watch helplessly as our media, our food, just about fucking everything gets more and more consolidated into fewer and fewer trees of corporations and the corporations they own. All most people care about is what they need to do to get along, they just accept everything as given and go from there. And yeah, then there's the people dreaming of actual immortality in all this mess. Just look at them. They've been creeping me out since I was a kid, not once have I seen a scientist talk about this who seemed to be a balanced human being. Anyway, as Kafka wrote in his notebook, "Believing in progress does not mean believing that any progress has yet been made." But then again he also wrote this: "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid." But that's not what you're talking about, children dying in Africa, is it? Or people who just want to feel like they have some agency in their life playing Farmville? No, the universe is oh so exiting, it's an awesome ride... bleh. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes still stare at clouds or my hand or whatever and am simply amazed. But a sense of wonder is only one part of the story, the other part is human society, which is nowhere near the awesome complex miracle the universe is, but often rather banal, predictable, suicidal on good days and murderous on bad ones, with ads everywhere, just in case someone has an actual thought in a quiet minute. I still agree that one should not give up, if that can be avoided. But I disagree that "if they figured out a way to give a damn, you can, too." -- so many people didn't figure anything out (how many natives are basically dying from depression in reservations?), and if they couldn't, why should I be able to? We live on a planet where Stalin and Hitler and Mao actually happened, where the US is actually a thing, and where there is no reason to believe power, control and deception will not be absolute and insubvertible one day -- until the heat death of the universe, that is. People who don't give up do that for themselves; they don't don't owe it to anyone. Maybe to the people who love them, maybe to themselves, but not to any old random schmuck of the past. I think there is no logical argument you could make for why people "have" to be happy and not just mope or become criminals, and hugs are really as good as it gets.