9 ms·

Ah okay. Well, Asia is a really big place so let's just say East Asia. I don't know anything about the culture at Japanese airlines vs. the culture at Korean

Ah okay. Well, Asia is a really big place so let's just say East Asia. I don't know anything about the culture at Japanese airlines vs. the culture at Korean airlines. Obviously they are different? Maybe the deference becomes more of a problem in Korea due to other cultural issues. I agree that blaming it on deference alone doesn't make sense. Wild guess is that Japanese people are more perfectionist? But I don't have any evidence for this, not even anecdotal.

chetanahuja 13y ago
Wild guess is that Japanese people are more perfectionist? ... But I don't have any evidence for this, not even anecdotal. In that case, may I suggest another wild guess? Maybe Japanese pilots are and have been better trained? You know, just to get away from another instance of unnecessary stereotyping.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  Well it's obvious that they are better trained, because there are less crashes. The question is, what factors lead to them having better training? More money? Japan's relationship with America? As for "perfectionism" being an unnecessary stereotype, if you're looking for a cultural explanation you're necessarily dealing with stereotypes. It's just as stereotypical to argue that all of East Asia shares the same culture of deference, just this time it works to your advantage because it means it isn't a factor. It's even relying on stereotypes to talk about the training across an industry. Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible? Stereotypes can be okay, as long as they are accurate and not applied indiscriminately. I know that Japan has a culture of perfectionism (Google "Japan perfectionism" to start), I just don't know about Korea and what the differences might be.
  - chetanahuja 13y ago
    "As for "perfectionism" being an unnecessary stereotype, if you're looking for a cultural explanation..." Who is looking for cultural explanations ? I pointed out the difference between Japanese and Korean air-safety records specifically to point out the cultural explanations are devoid of any credibility in this case. Ahh right. I get it. You must be of white northern European ancestry. There seems to be a cumpulsive cultural need among your people to explain away performance difference between different human beings based on where they come from.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Training programs are cultures. Japanese pilots are better trained because the culture of their training program is different. What other explanation do you have? If you don't believe culture has an effect on behavior, why do you think my ancestry has anything to do with my behavior? You're also picking and choosing bits of my posts to hear what you want to hear. I specifically asked, "Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible?"
      - chetanahuja 13y ago
        "Japanese pilots are better trained because the culture of their training program is different" This statement is basically devoid of any informational content. You can just insert the word "culture" in any similar statement. Watch: "Google search is better because google has a superior culture oriented around search" "Italian espresso is tastier because of the superior espresso-loving culture of Italy" "If you don't believe culture has an effect on behavior, why do you think my ancestry has anything to do with my behavior?" -----Whoosh-----> "I specifically asked, "Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible?" Another nice sounding statement that's irrelevant for the topic at hand. The whole debate is about Gladwell specifically blaming Korea's national culture of deference on the airline's safety record.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        I agreed with you about Gladwell and deference. I agreed with you about the Japanese having better training. I'm not sure what you want out of this. It seems like the idea that culture influences behavior is deeply offensive to you. How come?
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        My reason is that I just don't like sloppy reasoning to spread dangerous tribalist memes. What's your reason for continuing to insist on using the word "culture" after you had already agreed on the non-factor of deference and importance of training ?

chetanahuja 13y ago

Wild guess is that Japanese people are more perfectionist? ... But I don't have any evidence for this, not even anecdotal. In that case, may I suggest another wild guess? Maybe Japanese pilots are and have been better trained? You know, just to get away from another instance of unnecessary stereotyping.

foobarbazqux 13y ago
Well it's obvious that they are better trained, because there are less crashes. The question is, what factors lead to them having better training? More money? Japan's relationship with America? As for "perfectionism" being an unnecessary stereotype, if you're looking for a cultural explanation you're necessarily dealing with stereotypes. It's just as stereotypical to argue that all of East Asia shares the same culture of deference, just this time it works to your advantage because it means it isn't a factor. It's even relying on stereotypes to talk about the training across an industry. Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible? Stereotypes can be okay, as long as they are accurate and not applied indiscriminately. I know that Japan has a culture of perfectionism (Google "Japan perfectionism" to start), I just don't know about Korea and what the differences might be.
- chetanahuja 13y ago
  "As for "perfectionism" being an unnecessary stereotype, if you're looking for a cultural explanation..." Who is looking for cultural explanations ? I pointed out the difference between Japanese and Korean air-safety records specifically to point out the cultural explanations are devoid of any credibility in this case. Ahh right. I get it. You must be of white northern European ancestry. There seems to be a cumpulsive cultural need among your people to explain away performance difference between different human beings based on where they come from.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    Training programs are cultures. Japanese pilots are better trained because the culture of their training program is different. What other explanation do you have? If you don't believe culture has an effect on behavior, why do you think my ancestry has anything to do with my behavior? You're also picking and choosing bits of my posts to hear what you want to hear. I specifically asked, "Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible?"
    - chetanahuja 13y ago
      "Japanese pilots are better trained because the culture of their training program is different" This statement is basically devoid of any informational content. You can just insert the word "culture" in any similar statement. Watch: "Google search is better because google has a superior culture oriented around search" "Italian espresso is tastier because of the superior espresso-loving culture of Italy" "If you don't believe culture has an effect on behavior, why do you think my ancestry has anything to do with my behavior?" -----Whoosh-----> "I specifically asked, "Who's to say that the lives of the individuals in charge aren't fully responsible?" Another nice sounding statement that's irrelevant for the topic at hand. The whole debate is about Gladwell specifically blaming Korea's national culture of deference on the airline's safety record.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        I agreed with you about Gladwell and deference. I agreed with you about the Japanese having better training. I'm not sure what you want out of this. It seems like the idea that culture influences behavior is deeply offensive to you. How come?
        chetanahuja 13y ago
        My reason is that I just don't like sloppy reasoning to spread dangerous tribalist memes. What's your reason for continuing to insist on using the word "culture" after you had already agreed on the non-factor of deference and importance of training ?