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It is interesting that some social conservatives (or maybe just non-liberals?) care about consciously enforcing gender roles through clothing. This would seem t

by Dewie 13y ago

It is interesting that some social conservatives (or maybe just non-liberals?) care about consciously enforcing gender roles through clothing. This would seem to imply that they are similar in their beliefs with feminists when it comes to the nature/nurture question: that gender is enforced through culture. But this is usually thought of as a very liberal idea (or whatever I should call it). Pink as an effeminate color has always seemed kind of arbitrary to me. I just can't see how a color would have a specific gender.

rustynails 13y ago
I think you're missing something. I don't see anyone enforcing anything. What if people like differentiation? Your comments imply that it's bad. I come from a family with adopted siblings. My siblings are very similar to their biological parents, who were unknown to them (and all of us) until they were 20+. Let me put it another way... They don't just share similar genes in their "appearance". From where I sit, nurture plays very little in shaping a person in a benevolent environment. I have decades of case study around me to support that view. I also believe that part of human socialization is about mimicry. Why do most people wear jeans? Why do we bother with pleasant looking hair-styles? Why don't men wear dresses? These don't define who I am, and I believe have little influence on the way I think (to the best of my knowledge). If girls want to wear pink, it's not a bad thing, nor should it be seen as so.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > I don't see anyone enforcing anything. I was talking specifically about those who used clothing with that intent, not people who just go with what's fashionable and don't care much to or forth. > What if people like differentiation? I guess then that is what they like? > Your comments imply that it's bad. It does? I think enforcing gender roles is a generally a silly pursuit, since I believe more in nature than nurture (though as I've said it isn't always even the goal), and because I think that it can easily lead to a majority ("straight" gendered) suppressing a minority. When it comes to clothing, it's more of an interesting socio-historical thing to me, since I don't think it matters much one way or the other. > I come from a family with adopted siblings. My siblings are very similar to their biological parents, who were unknown to them (and all of us) until they were 20+. Let me put it another way... They don't just share similar genes in their "appearance". From where I sit, nurture plays very little in shaping a person in a benevolent environment. I have decades of case study around me to support that view. Ok. Hmm. Is this the part where I'm supposed to violently disagree with you? > If girls want to wear pink, it's not a bad thing, nor should it be seen as so. But I think that it's a bad thing? Ok.
jrarredondo 13y ago
Where is data that link political persuasion and clothing preference? I see all kinds of people at Babies'R'Us making the same color choices.
- Dewie 13y ago
  I assumed that social conservatives would be more likely to have a strong opinion about how gender roles should be. But it was purely an assumption.
endtime 13y ago
Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). In fact I always assumed this was indeed the cause for the association - I'm very surprised to learn it used to be reversed.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). You're excusing yourself for being crude? How is this crude? > Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). In fact I always assumed this was indeed the cause for the association - I'm very surprised to learn it used to be reversed. So what is the non-arbitrary reason? The one mentioned in the article?
  - meepmorp 13y ago
    > So what is the non-arbitrary reason? The one mentioned in the article? You seem smart enough to have figured out the implication, but I believe s/he meant that the inner portion of the labia and opening to the vagina are pink; the word pink is also used as a slag term for the female genitalia.
    - Dewie 13y ago
      Well in that case: the penis glans is pink.
      - meepmorp 13y ago
        Sure. I'm not endorsing the theory, merely stating it more directly (or so I think - I might be wrong).
        endtime 13y ago
        You're not wrong, that's what I meant. Well, and that the tunica albuginea is bluish, I believe.
eeky 13y ago
gender is enforced through culture No. Gender/sex is a result of objective biological differences.
agumonkey 13y ago
Maybe pink occurs less in its most intense form, in my mind it's a 'pale' shade. It's presence in nature is also rarely attached to hard emotions (unlike red : blood, fire; black : rot, death, obscurity, etc etc) and reminds me of smooth skin, cat paws, flower petals. Things that are soft and smooth, which are qualities I attach naturally to girls. Just my two subjective cents.

by Dewie 13y ago

rustynails 13y ago

I think you're missing something. I don't see anyone enforcing anything. What if people like differentiation? Your comments imply that it's bad. I come from a family with adopted siblings. My siblings are very similar to their biological parents, who were unknown to them (and all of us) until they were 20+. Let me put it another way... They don't just share similar genes in their "appearance". From where I sit, nurture plays very little in shaping a person in a benevolent environment. I have decades of case study around me to support that view. I also believe that part of human socialization is about mimicry. Why do most people wear jeans? Why do we bother with pleasant looking hair-styles? Why don't men wear dresses? These don't define who I am, and I believe have little influence on the way I think (to the best of my knowledge). If girls want to wear pink, it's not a bad thing, nor should it be seen as so.

Dewie 13y ago
> I don't see anyone enforcing anything. I was talking specifically about those who used clothing with that intent, not people who just go with what's fashionable and don't care much to or forth. > What if people like differentiation? I guess then that is what they like? > Your comments imply that it's bad. It does? I think enforcing gender roles is a generally a silly pursuit, since I believe more in nature than nurture (though as I've said it isn't always even the goal), and because I think that it can easily lead to a majority ("straight" gendered) suppressing a minority. When it comes to clothing, it's more of an interesting socio-historical thing to me, since I don't think it matters much one way or the other. > I come from a family with adopted siblings. My siblings are very similar to their biological parents, who were unknown to them (and all of us) until they were 20+. Let me put it another way... They don't just share similar genes in their "appearance". From where I sit, nurture plays very little in shaping a person in a benevolent environment. I have decades of case study around me to support that view. Ok. Hmm. Is this the part where I'm supposed to violently disagree with you? > If girls want to wear pink, it's not a bad thing, nor should it be seen as so. But I think that it's a bad thing? Ok.

jrarredondo 13y ago

Where is data that link political persuasion and clothing preference? I see all kinds of people at Babies'R'Us making the same color choices.

Dewie 13y ago
I assumed that social conservatives would be more likely to have a strong opinion about how gender roles should be. But it was purely an assumption.

endtime 13y ago

Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). In fact I always assumed this was indeed the cause for the association - I'm very surprised to learn it used to be reversed.

Dewie 13y ago
> Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). You're excusing yourself for being crude? How is this crude? > Sorry to be crude, but there is a very non-arbitrary reason for pink to be associated with females (and to a lesser extent, blue with males). In fact I always assumed this was indeed the cause for the association - I'm very surprised to learn it used to be reversed. So what is the non-arbitrary reason? The one mentioned in the article?
- meepmorp 13y ago
  > So what is the non-arbitrary reason? The one mentioned in the article? You seem smart enough to have figured out the implication, but I believe s/he meant that the inner portion of the labia and opening to the vagina are pink; the word pink is also used as a slag term for the female genitalia.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    Well in that case: the penis glans is pink.
    - meepmorp 13y ago
      Sure. I'm not endorsing the theory, merely stating it more directly (or so I think - I might be wrong).
      - endtime 13y ago
        You're not wrong, that's what I meant. Well, and that the tunica albuginea is bluish, I believe.

eeky 13y ago

gender is enforced through culture No. Gender/sex is a result of objective biological differences.

agumonkey 13y ago

Maybe pink occurs less in its most intense form, in my mind it's a 'pale' shade. It's presence in nature is also rarely attached to hard emotions (unlike red : blood, fire; black : rot, death, obscurity, etc etc) and reminds me of smooth skin, cat paws, flower petals. Things that are soft and smooth, which are qualities I attach naturally to girls. Just my two subjective cents.