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The archaeological record shows that tooth decay increased dramatically with agriculture, and prior to that, was much less frequent than today. It's one step f

by 6ren 13y ago

The archaeological record shows that tooth decay increased dramatically with agriculture, and prior to that, was much less frequent than today. It's one step forward, two steps back - at least, for dentistry. Many of our dramatically beneficial advances - such as covered sewage and vitamin-supplemented bread - solve problems that did not exist for less densely populated hunter-gatherers. The big problem for them was carrying capacity, meaning you had to migrate, fight the tribe next door... or practice infanticide. Overcoming these is the true achievement of our age. EDIT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel EDIT2 I'm saying pre-agriculture people had/have better teeth and gums than you do now.

derleth 13y ago
OK, nobody disputes that they have better teeth than my circa 1800 ancestors did, but I very likely have better teeth than they do now, so who really wins here? > The big problem for them was carrying capacity, meaning you had to migrate, fight the tribe next door... or practice infanticide. Overcoming these is the true achievement of our age. This is a point I wish I had made.
- dirktheman 13y ago
  I get your point, and I think we can all agree that our standards of living are WAY better than theirs, but by OUR standards. Yes, our life expectancy is better, we have better teeth, we are healthier, we get to use all the shiny stuff that comes with our civilization. But those are our standards, not theirs. So there's no 'winner' here. Look at native Americans. They were also 'savages', and we didn't do very well imposing our superior western civilization upon them. That kind of thinking is old-fashioned and harmful. We can't just assume that our culture, civilization is somehow 'better'. Of course, I wouldn't like living the way they do, but given the ferocity of their defense against others, this goes the same for them.
  - chrischen 13y ago
    If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive? Pretty sure whoever dies in that circumstance is the loser. I'm sure the dinosaurs were happy by their standards as well, but they're basically irrelevant now.
    - wazoox 13y ago
      > If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive? Them, obviously. You and I would die a painful death in a few days without sanitation, proper housing and supermarkets. They on the other hand, are perfectly used to manage with extremely scarce resources.
      - chrischen 13y ago
        Er... no. We would have a better chance of deflecting the asteroid if our technology is sufficiently advanced. Therefore, technological progress is objectively superior for survival.
  - VMG 13y ago
    > But those are our standards, not theirs I think it is fair to assume that health and life are universal standards. I'm willing to bet on in.
    - femto 13y ago
      Maybe it depends whether you look at it from a collective or individual point of view? Individually we are probably healthier, but as a population they well may be healthier since infirmity is naturally eliminated by death. That sounds pretty bad, but it might not be bad if they have a different, more accepting, view of death than us.
    - vr000m 13y ago
      Perhaps age is a universal standard and therefore health and life can be associated to it. On the other hand, if our contact wipes out a share of their population, it reduces their life expectancy. Furthermore, they survived the 2004 Tsunami, so possibly they are doing better than others in the region.
    - king_jester 13y ago
      What does this even mean? Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body. Societies do things very differently even if they say they promote life or health, but that kind if wishy washy dialog is useless, what matters are the details.
      - VMG 13y ago
        > Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body. I think health care access is an even greater problem on that island.
  - muyuu 13y ago
    They seem to live their lives essentially worry-free and they take care of each other. There are records of elderly population. They seem to like it the way they have it and seeing that their neighbouring tribesmen were either massacred or suffered extremely lethal epidemics, they seem to have achieved the most evolutionarily intelligent behaviour of the region by keeping strangers the fuck away from their island.
lukifer 13y ago
Don't forget the other major problem that civilization solved really well: infant mortality. (Unless you take the Malthusian perspective and see it as a boon to population management.)
- scrabble 13y ago
  The interesting thing here is that we have no idea if they have also solved infant mortality, but in a different way. They've been around for so long, it's likely that they've solved some of the problems we have in unique ways.

by 6ren 13y ago

derleth 13y ago

OK, nobody disputes that they have better teeth than my circa 1800 ancestors did, but I very likely have better teeth than they do now, so who really wins here? > The big problem for them was carrying capacity, meaning you had to migrate, fight the tribe next door... or practice infanticide. Overcoming these is the true achievement of our age. This is a point I wish I had made.

dirktheman 13y ago
I get your point, and I think we can all agree that our standards of living are WAY better than theirs, but by OUR standards. Yes, our life expectancy is better, we have better teeth, we are healthier, we get to use all the shiny stuff that comes with our civilization. But those are our standards, not theirs. So there's no 'winner' here. Look at native Americans. They were also 'savages', and we didn't do very well imposing our superior western civilization upon them. That kind of thinking is old-fashioned and harmful. We can't just assume that our culture, civilization is somehow 'better'. Of course, I wouldn't like living the way they do, but given the ferocity of their defense against others, this goes the same for them.
- chrischen 13y ago
  If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive? Pretty sure whoever dies in that circumstance is the loser. I'm sure the dinosaurs were happy by their standards as well, but they're basically irrelevant now.
  - wazoox 13y ago
    > If an asteroid hits the Earth, who do you think will be best equipped to survive? Them, obviously. You and I would die a painful death in a few days without sanitation, proper housing and supermarkets. They on the other hand, are perfectly used to manage with extremely scarce resources.
    - chrischen 13y ago
      Er... no. We would have a better chance of deflecting the asteroid if our technology is sufficiently advanced. Therefore, technological progress is objectively superior for survival.
- VMG 13y ago
  > But those are our standards, not theirs I think it is fair to assume that health and life are universal standards. I'm willing to bet on in.
  - femto 13y ago
    Maybe it depends whether you look at it from a collective or individual point of view? Individually we are probably healthier, but as a population they well may be healthier since infirmity is naturally eliminated by death. That sounds pretty bad, but it might not be bad if they have a different, more accepting, view of death than us.
  - vr000m 13y ago
    Perhaps age is a universal standard and therefore health and life can be associated to it. On the other hand, if our contact wipes out a share of their population, it reduces their life expectancy. Furthermore, they survived the 2004 Tsunami, so possibly they are doing better than others in the region.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    What does this even mean? Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body. Societies do things very differently even if they say they promote life or health, but that kind if wishy washy dialog is useless, what matters are the details.
    - VMG 13y ago
      > Talking in platitudes about health and life are all fine and dandy, and yet the in US there are tremendous issues with poverty, health care access, and control of one's own body. I think health care access is an even greater problem on that island.
- muyuu 13y ago
  They seem to live their lives essentially worry-free and they take care of each other. There are records of elderly population. They seem to like it the way they have it and seeing that their neighbouring tribesmen were either massacred or suffered extremely lethal epidemics, they seem to have achieved the most evolutionarily intelligent behaviour of the region by keeping strangers the fuck away from their island.

lukifer 13y ago

Don't forget the other major problem that civilization solved really well: infant mortality. (Unless you take the Malthusian perspective and see it as a boon to population management.)

scrabble 13y ago
The interesting thing here is that we have no idea if they have also solved infant mortality, but in a different way. They've been around for so long, it's likely that they've solved some of the problems we have in unique ways.